Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 9:40 am
Love a good shambles.
What about a Chancellor being accused of being creative on her CV?
Now that is a Real humdinger of a shambles
Labour, the party that just keeps on giving.
Just as you do, ad nauseum.
When the Government stop being such a shambles I’ll have nothing to talk about! They get their act together is the answer. Good luck to the farmers and their protest. There is yet another shambolic decision.
Even Labour people are not happy with some of it.
Still, they’ve laid down a solid framework when Trump takes over for real. I just hope he is not a vindictive sort of guy. Slurs from people who he now has to deal with. Still, they have been sucking up as best they can to repair the damage. I struggle for a word to describe it.
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 9:49 pm
Why should millionaire farmers not pay inheritance tax?
Because they are not cash rich millionaires, their wealth is in their land, outbuildings, machinery and often their livestock. The only way they can pay tax is by selling their land/equipment etc thereby reducing their ability or produce food profitably. Maybe to the point of making the whole process not worth the effort. Or take out loans.
We should be increasing our ability to be food self sufficient. Not relying on foreign imports transported from around the world. The right thing to do is support British farming, help it grow, help it to become more able to produce quality home-grown produce and not introduce measures that play into the hand of overseas competitors.
I really struggle to see the benefits of this move. But the I am struggling to see the sense in what this government is doing.
Better still, research this topic on the web and make up your own mind. Then explain how this move is good!
Last edited by Dohnut on Mon Nov 18, 2024 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 9:49 pm
Why should millionaire farmers not pay inheritance tax?
Because they are not cash rich millionaires, their wealth is in their land, outbuildings, machinery and often their livestock. The only way they can pay tax is by selling their land/equipment etc thereby reducing their ability or produce food profitably. Maybe to the point of making the whole process not worth the effort.
We should be increasing our ability to be food self sufficient. Not relying on foreign imports transported from around the world. The right thing to do is support British farming, help it grow, help it to become more able to produce quality home-grown produce and not introduce measures that play into the hand of overseas competitors.
I really struggle to see the benefits of this move. But the I am struggling to see the sense in what this government is doing.
Unsurprisingly it was Maggie Thatcher who introduced the law to relieve farmers from paying IHT, back in 1984. For whatever dumbarse reason she did this, although looking after wealthy landowning friends/backers might be a good bet, this allowed chancers like Dyson, Clarkson etc to buy land in order to get out of paying IHT. This needed changing. Maybe thresholds need reviewing but overall it’s a good idea to remove this tax loophole. Lastly, anything that pisses off the likes of Clarkson and Dyson can’t be all bad, can it.
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 9:49 pm
Why should millionaire farmers not pay inheritance tax?
Because they are not cash rich millionaires, their wealth is in their land, outbuildings, machinery and often their livestock. The only way they can pay tax is by selling their land/equipment etc thereby reducing their ability or produce food profitably. Maybe to the point of making the whole process not worth the effort.
We should be increasing our ability to be food self sufficient. Not relying on foreign imports transported from around the world. The right thing to do is support British farming, help it grow, help it to become more able to produce quality home-grown produce and not introduce measures that play into the hand of overseas competitors.
I really struggle to see the benefits of this move. But the I am struggling to see the sense in what this government is doing.
Unsurprisingly it was Maggie Thatcher who introduced the law to relieve farmers from paying IHT, back in 1984. For whatever dumbarse reason she did this, although looking after wealthy landowning friends/backers might be a good bet, this allowed chancers like Dyson, Clarkson etc to buy land in order to get out of paying IHT. This needed changing. Maybe thresholds need reviewing but overall it’s a good idea to remove this tax loophole. Lastly, anything that pisses off the likes of Clarkson and Dyson can’t be all bad, can it.
The work Dyson is doing is amazingly innovative and definitely benefits the future. But Dyson will be able to afford this tax. Or use creative accounting to avoid it. It is the smaller farmers who will get into difficulties. But like all things, the impact of this will be more expensive food on the shelves. Or more foreign imports. Ultimately it’s us who will pick up the bill.
An interesting article. Less than 500 estates per year will be affected. Seems to me that today's protests are yet another example of the extremely rich getting the hoi poloi to do their dirty work
I wish someone would give me a small farm worth £3,000,000 for free….
Let’s be clear here - farmers are still getting massive IHT breaks. They only have to pay a rate of 20%, not 40% like everyone else. And it’s only payable on family estates worth more than three million pounds. Anyone whinging about wealthy farmers having to pay this is either 1) a wealthy farmer or 2) an idiot.
If they want to keep the farm on and run it as it was, simply take out a small loan and pay it down from the profits they’ll make from the free farm they now own. And if things are tight, maybe buy 1 less Range Rover or send your kids to the local state school. It’s not like you need an education to drive a tractor, is it?
StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 8:44 am
An interesting article. Less than 500 estates per year will be affected. Seems to me that today's protests are yet another example of the extremely rich getting the hoi poloi to do their dirty work
The chutzpah of the right wing media and Tories complaining about British farming being killed after advocating for
- withdrawal from the EU, making the export of food more expensive and cumbersome for our main export market, and subsequent the loss of farm subsidies
- signing of free trade deals with countries with lower food production standards meaning British farmers will be undercut (Australian beef and lamb for example)
- Tory set up of Environmental Land Management schemes to replace EU subsidies by encouraging rewilding over food production
The small time farmer is already on the way out because of a combination of all the above.
Labour have been terrible at communication on this issue.
Farmland has been used as an IHT avoidance loophole by the wealthy for years. Jeremy Clarkson, in one of the previous series of Clarkson's Farm, pretty much admitted to that being his reason for buying Diddly Squat. He initially just employed a farm manager to run it on his behalf and only got involved when he realised there was an entertainment angle for him.
One thing I would point out, however, is that many of these family farmers will not be able to finance any IHT payments, as their revenue is too variable and margins too tight to access anything but loans with a punitive interest rate. So, an unfortunate consequence of this is that we will eventually see the end of many smaller family run farms. And an acceleration of the ongoing farmland acquisitions we're seeing for the US investment funds (i.e. Black Rock, who will then appoint a tenant farmer - think the PubCo business model).
However, this was probably always going to happen anyway. Go to any farming fair or country show and you'll notice how old the farming community is. Most of their kids have already found employment in other sectors and have little interest in doing what is back-breaking work. The same thing happened in Ireland back in the 80s.
Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 9:42 am
One thing I would point out, however, is that many of these family farmers will not be able to finance any IHT payments, as their revenue is too variable and margins too tight to access anything but loans with a punitive interest rate.
So you’ve bought into the ‘poor farmers’ thing?
Let’s say a £5m farming estate is handed down. 20% IHT over £3m = £400k. I would hope that with that level of equity, the poor farmer should be able to secure a reasonable mortgage rate.
Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 9:42 am
One thing I would point out, however, is that many of these family farmers will not be able to finance any IHT payments, as their revenue is too variable and margins too tight to access anything but loans with a punitive interest rate.
So you’ve bought into the ‘poor farmers’ thing?
Let’s say a £5m farming estate is handed down. 20% IHT over £3m = £400k. I would hope that with that level of equity, the poor farmer should be able to secure a reasonable mortgage rate.
I'm wondering if that situation might fall under the HMRC pay IHT by instalment over 10 years at a relatively competitive rate of interest scheme.
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 10:41 am
Oh wow, I didn’t know there was a specific scheme in place for that. Maybe someone should let the farmers know?
Most of them won't need to know because they won't be caught by IHT and those that will can obviously "gift" the farm to offspring now and hope to survive 7 years and pay no IHT.
Even if they don't get to the 7 year mark they can enjoy a generous tapering relief that reduces the IHT rate in years 1to 6. It's really just a storm in a teacup.
The real issues that farmers are upset about arise from Brexit and the Tory government not adequately replacing the lost EU hand outs.
Let them tractors roll with their duty free fuel and Ulez exemptions.
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 10:41 am
Oh wow, I didn’t know there was a specific scheme in place for that. Maybe someone should let the farmers know?
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 10:41 am
Oh wow, I didn’t know there was a specific scheme in place for that. Maybe someone should let the farmers know?
Most of them won't need to know because they won't be caught by IHT and those that will can obviously "gift" the farm to offspring now and hope to survive 7 years and pay no IHT.
Even if they don't get to the 7 year mark they can enjoy a generous tapering relief that reduces the IHT rate in years 1to 6. It's really just a storm in a teacup.
The real issues that farmers are upset about arise from Brexit and the Tory government not adequately replacing the lost EU hand outs.
Let them tractors roll with their duty free fuel and Ulez exemptions.
But I distinctly remember seeing lots of local farmers with signs in their fields, visible from the roads, that said we should vote to leave the EU?
A poll in early 2016, conducted by the University of Exeter, found that 46% of the farmers they questioned said the interests of British agriculture would be best served by the UK remaining in the EU, while only 36% indicated it would be better to leave. The rest were undecided.
Opinions vary but according to the Government only a few number of farms will be affected. That being the case Government income from the change will also be small, so why bother. Of course the impact will be bigger and the ones most affected will be the small scale farmers whose land may be worth a lot but whose income is not.
The rhetoric is this.
Only a small number of farmers will be affected
Only a small number of pensioners will be affected by the heating allowance scandal
Job losses from other changes will be small. Many part time workers.
The issue for me is that those affected are the most vulnerable in our society. They don’t seem to matter.
Still, I understand the measures have the approval of the Chinese top brass. Hack off the USA. Cosy up with China. Where will it end?
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 12:38 pm
Vulnerable millionaire farmers?
Whats China got to do with anything?
Then you need to research farmers. Having land worth a million is fine. Having outbuildings and equipment worth thousands is fine. But unless the tax man will accept a tractor, a few cows or acres of land in payment then farmers need cash to pay their bills. Asset rich means selling assets to pay bills. That means selling assets or taking out loans. And/or putting up prices or reducing the numbers of casuals employed. Or just selling up.
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 12:38 pm
Vulnerable millionaire farmers?
A China got to do with anything?
Then you need to research farmers. Having land worth a million is fine. Having outbuildings and equipment worth thousands is fine. But unless the tax man will accept a tractor, a few cows or acres of land in payment then farmers need cash to pay their bills. Asset rich means selling assets to pay bills. That means selling assets or taking out loans. And/or putting up prices or reducing the numbers of casuals employed. Or just selling up.
Luckily the equipment will be covered by the generous business property relief and the farm buildings and land by the agricultural relief.
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 12:38 pm
Vulnerable millionaire farmers?
Whats China got to do with anything?
Then you need to research farmers. Having land worth a million is fine. Having outbuildings and equipment worth thousands is fine. But unless the tax man will accept a tractor, a few cows or acres of land in payment then farmers need cash to pay their bills. Asset rich means selling assets to pay bills. That means selling assets or taking out loans. And/or putting up prices or reducing the numbers of casuals employed. Or just selling up.
No tax to pay in this case for this particular vulnerable farmer. He’s been given this million pound farm for free.
