The trans debate

[Currywurst and Chips]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rdpdm4r4ro

[Dunners]

They're just trolling Keef now.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ister.html

[Long slender neck]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y3892qw1vo

Some pretty shocking insights into Brianna Gheys mental state here.

At one stage Brianna would go for weeks without washing or brushing her teeth, became totally isolated, and was referred for treatment for ADHD and diagnosed with autism, her mother said.

"I feel she was let down by the lack of mental health treatment," Ms Ghey added.

While at an eating disorder clinic, staff noticed Brianna had been self-harming, with marks on her arms and legs.

"She would cut her arms and legs - at one point she carved a row of love heart shapes on her arm," Ms Ghey's statement said.

The hearing was also told that when Brianna wanted to transition, she had threatened to kill herself if she did not receive hormone medication.

Ms Ghey said she tried to hold off for as long as possible due to concerns about the long-term effects of such medication, but eventually felt she had to agree.

“I don’t know if she would have [taken her own life] but I couldn’t take the risk," she said.

Brianna started taking puberty blockers and oestrogen that Ms Ghey ordered from an online service.

Her mother said Brianna’s mental health deteriorated in lockdown and she began to live her life mainly online.

She looked at Twitter accounts that promoted eating disorders and self-harm.

After lockdown, Brianna did not attend lessons in school because of anxiety.

“She went down a hole of negativity," Ms Ghey said.

Its not clear to me if all of this is pre or post transition though.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y3892qw1vo

Some pretty shocking insights into Brianna Gheys mental state here.

At one stage Brianna would go for weeks without washing or brushing her teeth, became totally isolated, and was referred for treatment for ADHD and diagnosed with autism, her mother said.

"I feel she was let down by the lack of mental health treatment," Ms Ghey added.

While at an eating disorder clinic, staff noticed Brianna had been self-harming, with marks on her arms and legs.

"She would cut her arms and legs - at one point she carved a row of love heart shapes on her arm," Ms Ghey's statement said.

The hearing was also told that when Brianna wanted to transition, she had threatened to kill herself if she did not receive hormone medication.

Ms Ghey said she tried to hold off for as long as possible due to concerns about the long-term effects of such medication, but eventually felt she had to agree.

“I don’t know if she would have [taken her own life] but I couldn’t take the risk," she said.

Brianna started taking puberty blockers and oestrogen that Ms Ghey ordered from an online service.

Her mother said Brianna’s mental health deteriorated in lockdown and she began to live her life mainly online.

She looked at Twitter accounts that promoted eating disorders and self-harm.

After lockdown, Brianna did not attend lessons in school because of anxiety.

“She went down a hole of negativity," Ms Ghey said.

Its not clear to me if all of this is pre or post transition though.

Important to remember that there’s - even within the trans community - not really such a thing as “pre” or “post” transition; “trans” is something one *realises* about oneself, not something someone “does”. The surgical, hormonal and social actions that surround transition are viewed as “affirmation” of a trans identity, but are not viewed as being the transition.

This kid will have been on the internet, at an age where he is soon to go through natural changes that a lot of kids are scared of, and will have been down a rabbit hole where some of his completely normal interests and some of his totally mundane rejection of norms will have been framed as evidence of a trans identity. He will have been subject to lots of people discussing his male puberty as hugely damaging, and lots of people talking about a detrimental impact on his mental health if he sought to suppress his “trans identity”

The poor kid didn’t stand a chance. What happened to him was a tragedy, but it’s also the case that the pathway he was on was the result of a scandalous lack of evidence based care, and a scandalous defaulting to a novel framing of how we think of children who don’t adhere to gendered norms.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

This blog post is well worth a read:


The parent trap
ELIZA MONDEGREEN



Jamie Reed drew this post—in a Reddit community frequented by parents of “trans” kids—to my attention. The author describes herself as a “very confused mama” and briefly lays out her family’s story: her daughter came out as trans at age 14 (“very out of the blue”), something her parents “fully supported from day one.”

Under the sway of the trans narrative, her role as a mother—“to love and support my child no matter what”—got twisted around to mean things like following her child’s lead, finding a “really supportive endo[crinologist],” and making sure her daughter’s school treated her like a boy. With the support of her parents—and, of course, the involvement of her doctors—this girl started testosterone and underwent a double mastectomy.

But a few months after going under the knife, her daughter started to express regret, ultimately quitting testosterone, re-identifying as female, and distancing herself from her affirming parents (who still refer to her as their “son”):

I can kind of accept that it’s been a huge change (even though it’s one he wanted for so long) and that any major surgery is likely to have a huge impact but I was in no way prepared for the hate and blame that has been hurled out way.

He now says we “rushed” him and that if we’d questioned him more he wouldn’t have had surgeries and possibly not hormones (although he goes back and forth on this).

In short, he thinks he’s ruined his life and body and that we are responsible for that.

All I have ever wanted for my child is that they felt loved, supported, secure, no matter how he identifies and this has just thrown me for a loop. I can’t eat. I can’t sleep. I’m crippled with guilt that maybe they’re right and I don’t know what to do any more.

It was a huge adjustment to move from having a daughter to having a son. But I loved my son fiercely, and without question. Now I’m being asked to readjust to potentially having a daughter again, but also being blamed for taking the only course of action we could reasonably have taken at the time and it feels so overwhelming for all of us.

I don’t know what to do for the best. Following his lead, we thought surgery was “best” and now we’ve been cut off because he is so angry, hurt and confused in the aftermath of having had his top surgery. We are still funding therapy because whether it was the right or wrong course of action, obviously he should be supported but oh my days I don’t know where to put my head.

I keep saying son but the last contact we had he needed to “give some time to being female” again and I’m just in such a dark place trying to figure out which end of me is up.

This family is in a terrible position and the mother is wracked by guilt, unsure whether she did right or wrong by her child. It’s clear she tried to do right. I believe her when she says all she ever wanted was for her child to feel “loved, supported, and secure.” She came to believe that loving, supporting, and protecting her child required affirming her child’s trans identity.

She didn’t come to this conclusion by herself. She sought medical assistance for her distressed child. It’s possible that she shopped around for an affirming doctor (e.g., the “really supportive endo” she tracked down), but what patients and parents seek and what medical providers offer are two separate questions. No matter what patients and parents want, medical providers have a responsibility to ‘do no harm.’ The doctors involved in this young woman’s care harmed her.

She describes herself as a long-time active member of r/cisparenttranskid, saying she has “held hands with many of you through our journeys.” But now that her child’s “gender journey” has taken an unexpected detour—now that she “do[es]n’t really know where else to go” with her sense of guilt and horror—the community turns on her.

A few apologize in advance for their skepticism, leaving open the possibility that the mother’s post may be genuine, before belittling her family’s story as playing into a “common trope” about regret.

Others suggest that her child has fallen under the dangerous influence of “detransitioners. Or rather, ‘detransitioners.’” One trans-identified man suggests that the daughter’s expressions of regret and desire to return to her female identity may stem from the “success” of her transition!

I have an unsubstantiated theory as to how some folks fall down this rabbit hole. See, transition is a process. The further you get through it, the more milestones you hit, the more you tend to drop off from the community. Being trans just takes up less and less of your life. Not to mention that your community of support is struggling where you've been successful - you tire of the grief you've moved on from and they often build some resentment towards people whose transition is going better than their transition. People just kind of peel away. As a trans woman who has been in online trans communities for closing on two decades I know a lot of folks who have followed that sort of process. You never lose the closest friends you made in the community but you gradually break away You need to fill that hole where that old community was with new people. Sometimes it's a local book club, sometimes it's a mean girl clique on Facebook, sometimes it's a niche hobby/interest community, and sometimes it's a hate group. I've seen that, sadly. Hate groups thrive on love-bombing - welcoming people in and providing an answer for why there is a hole in their life (because almost everyone seeking community/companionship has some kind of hole that needs to be filled). Sometimes the answer as to why you feel like your life hasn't gotten better after a big accomplishment is "immigrants", sometimes it's other things, sometimes it's "you've fallen into societal indoctrination and to feel better you need to break free." It provides a better answer than "life doesn't get as good as you want quickly as you'd like."

Yes, perhaps the daughter’s transition was so successful that she pulled away from the trans community and then fell in with a “hate group” after being “love-bomb[ed].” This is the most parsimonious explanation.

Others suggest that the “son” must have “[fallen] down a rabbit hole of some sort.”

Others predict the daughter will “retransition,” like “many” detransitioners do:

It's hard to tell what your kiddo is going through, but one thing to consider is that most people who detransition do so for external reasons. (E.g. to avoid stigma and discrimination etc), and many re-transition later (link at bottom).

Therefore, the mother, the doctors, the world were not too supportive of a child’s mistaken trans identification but rather not supportive enough! (Somehow the answer to failures of gender-affirming care is always more affirmation, not less!)

Another commenter compares adolescent gender distress to a life-threatening cancer diagnosis:

Here's a hypothetical for you: if your child had a rare form of cancer, and the recommended treatment had a 99% success rate but 1% failure rate and treatment would alter their body but save them from suffering for years and possibly premature death, would you have chosen no treatment just in case your child was in the 1%, or would you have followed the evidence and chosen treatment? That's what you did, and if it didn't work, that's bad luck, and not your fault. I presume you had experts see your child through years of treatment and followed their recommendations. So all you can do now is give your child time and space.

What parent could have done otherwise?

Several insist on that “1%” regret/failure rate—whether to marginalize the mother’s experience (“This is a 1 percent scenario and very odd”) or to comfort her (“You could not have known that your kid would be in the 1%.”):

Transition takes years and has lots of check points and mandatory therapy. The fact that they also took hormones and had top surgery 9 months ago is even more odd.

They would most likely have started to feel unsure or distressed way way way earlier.

The only way that I can think to make this realistic is maybe the kid got involved in some religion/cult, or conspiracy theorist group? Maybe an abusive relationship?

I'm leaving this up for now because if this is true you deserve help but just so you are aware most people are going to believe this is fake because it is so rare and unlikely. If you have more specific details that may help.

In other words, this mother’s account must be fake, designed to provoke parental anxieties. Or if not fake than rare (1%!). Or if not fake or rare than reversible (she’ll surely retransition!). Or if not fake or rare or reversible, then the child must have “fall[en] down a rabbithole” or gotten herself “involved in some religion/cult.”

It can’t be that a child can express a desire to transition, undergo years of therapy, clear “lots of check points,” and still end up with regret and distress and blame.

None of these parents will be able to sleep soundly at night if this mother’s story could one day be theirs.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Geezer with a history of assaulting women and pushing coppers over gets in trouble again… https://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/new ... k-assault/

[Max B Gold]

This blog post is well worth a read:


The parent trap
ELIZA MONDEGREEN



Jamie Reed drew this post—in a Reddit community frequented by parents of “trans” kids—to my attention. The author describes herself as a “very confused mama” and briefly lays out her family’s story: her daughter came out as trans at age 14 (“very out of the blue”), something her parents “fully supported from day one.”

Under the sway of the trans narrative, her role as a mother—“to love and support my child no matter what”—got twisted around to mean things like following her child’s lead, finding a “really supportive endo[crinologist],” and making sure her daughter’s school treated her like a boy. With the support of her parents—and, of course, the involvement of her doctors—this girl started testosterone and underwent a double mastectomy.

But a few months after going under the knife, her daughter started to express regret, ultimately quitting testosterone, re-identifying as female, and distancing herself from her affirming parents (who still refer to her as their “son”):

I can kind of accept that it’s been a huge change (even though it’s one he wanted for so long) and that any major surgery is likely to have a huge impact but I was in no way prepared for the hate and blame that has been hurled out way.

He now says we “rushed” him and that if we’d questioned him more he wouldn’t have had surgeries and possibly not hormones (although he goes back and forth on this).

In short, he thinks he’s ruined his life and body and that we are responsible for that.

All I have ever wanted for my child is that they felt loved, supported, secure, no matter how he identifies and this has just thrown me for a loop. I can’t eat. I can’t sleep. I’m crippled with guilt that maybe they’re right and I don’t know what to do any more.

It was a huge adjustment to move from having a daughter to having a son. But I loved my son fiercely, and without question. Now I’m being asked to readjust to potentially having a daughter again, but also being blamed for taking the only course of action we could reasonably have taken at the time and it feels so overwhelming for all of us.

I don’t know what to do for the best. Following his lead, we thought surgery was “best” and now we’ve been cut off because he is so angry, hurt and confused in the aftermath of having had his top surgery. We are still funding therapy because whether it was the right or wrong course of action, obviously he should be supported but oh my days I don’t know where to put my head.

I keep saying son but the last contact we had he needed to “give some time to being female” again and I’m just in such a dark place trying to figure out which end of me is up.

This family is in a terrible position and the mother is wracked by guilt, unsure whether she did right or wrong by her child. It’s clear she tried to do right. I believe her when she says all she ever wanted was for her child to feel “loved, supported, and secure.” She came to believe that loving, supporting, and protecting her child required affirming her child’s trans identity.

She didn’t come to this conclusion by herself. She sought medical assistance for her distressed child. It’s possible that she shopped around for an affirming doctor (e.g., the “really supportive endo” she tracked down), but what patients and parents seek and what medical providers offer are two separate questions. No matter what patients and parents want, medical providers have a responsibility to ‘do no harm.’ The doctors involved in this young woman’s care harmed her.

She describes herself as a long-time active member of r/cisparenttranskid, saying she has “held hands with many of you through our journeys.” But now that her child’s “gender journey” has taken an unexpected detour—now that she “do[es]n’t really know where else to go” with her sense of guilt and horror—the community turns on her.

A few apologize in advance for their skepticism, leaving open the possibility that the mother’s post may be genuine, before belittling her family’s story as playing into a “common trope” about regret.

Others suggest that her child has fallen under the dangerous influence of “detransitioners. Or rather, ‘detransitioners.’” One trans-identified man suggests that the daughter’s expressions of regret and desire to return to her female identity may stem from the “success” of her transition!

I have an unsubstantiated theory as to how some folks fall down this rabbit hole. See, transition is a process. The further you get through it, the more milestones you hit, the more you tend to drop off from the community. Being trans just takes up less and less of your life. Not to mention that your community of support is struggling where you've been successful - you tire of the grief you've moved on from and they often build some resentment towards people whose transition is going better than their transition. People just kind of peel away. As a trans woman who has been in online trans communities for closing on two decades I know a lot of folks who have followed that sort of process. You never lose the closest friends you made in the community but you gradually break away You need to fill that hole where that old community was with new people. Sometimes it's a local book club, sometimes it's a mean girl clique on Facebook, sometimes it's a niche hobby/interest community, and sometimes it's a hate group. I've seen that, sadly. Hate groups thrive on love-bombing - welcoming people in and providing an answer for why there is a hole in their life (because almost everyone seeking community/companionship has some kind of hole that needs to be filled). Sometimes the answer as to why you feel like your life hasn't gotten better after a big accomplishment is "immigrants", sometimes it's other things, sometimes it's "you've fallen into societal indoctrination and to feel better you need to break free." It provides a better answer than "life doesn't get as good as you want quickly as you'd like."

Yes, perhaps the daughter’s transition was so successful that she pulled away from the trans community and then fell in with a “hate group” after being “love-bomb[ed].” This is the most parsimonious explanation.

Others suggest that the “son” must have “[fallen] down a rabbit hole of some sort.”

Others predict the daughter will “retransition,” like “many” detransitioners do:

It's hard to tell what your kiddo is going through, but one thing to consider is that most people who detransition do so for external reasons. (E.g. to avoid stigma and discrimination etc), and many re-transition later (link at bottom).

Therefore, the mother, the doctors, the world were not too supportive of a child’s mistaken trans identification but rather not supportive enough! (Somehow the answer to failures of gender-affirming care is always more affirmation, not less!)

Another commenter compares adolescent gender distress to a life-threatening cancer diagnosis:

Here's a hypothetical for you: if your child had a rare form of cancer, and the recommended treatment had a 99% success rate but 1% failure rate and treatment would alter their body but save them from suffering for years and possibly premature death, would you have chosen no treatment just in case your child was in the 1%, or would you have followed the evidence and chosen treatment? That's what you did, and if it didn't work, that's bad luck, and not your fault. I presume you had experts see your child through years of treatment and followed their recommendations. So all you can do now is give your child time and space.

What parent could have done otherwise?

Several insist on that “1%” regret/failure rate—whether to marginalize the mother’s experience (“This is a 1 percent scenario and very odd”) or to comfort her (“You could not have known that your kid would be in the 1%.”):

Transition takes years and has lots of check points and mandatory therapy. The fact that they also took hormones and had top surgery 9 months ago is even more odd.

They would most likely have started to feel unsure or distressed way way way earlier.

The only way that I can think to make this realistic is maybe the kid got involved in some religion/cult, or conspiracy theorist group? Maybe an abusive relationship?

I'm leaving this up for now because if this is true you deserve help but just so you are aware most people are going to believe this is fake because it is so rare and unlikely. If you have more specific details that may help.

In other words, this mother’s account must be fake, designed to provoke parental anxieties. Or if not fake than rare (1%!). Or if not fake or rare than reversible (she’ll surely retransition!). Or if not fake or rare or reversible, then the child must have “fall[en] down a rabbithole” or gotten herself “involved in some religion/cult.”

It can’t be that a child can express a desire to transition, undergo years of therapy, clear “lots of check points,” and still end up with regret and distress and blame.

None of these parents will be able to sleep soundly at night if this mother’s story could one day be theirs.

I seriously doubt its worth reading. So I didn't.

Just relax. Trans people aren't the Devil.

[Proposition Joe]

Fairly predictably there's a Transgender Awareness Week webinar at work this week, the bumph for which explicitly notes, as CEB points out above, that 'a person is trans the moment they realise that their gender identity is different from the sex they were assigned at birth'. So there's that, but also slightly surprised to see Mermaids atop the list of support orgs one can get more info from. Thought that, especially for a Govt agency, they would be given a wider birth now?

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

The reason a lot of places don’t know to give mermaids a wide berth is because (as this thread shows) it takes an almighty effort to articulate and maintain a left of centre objection to trans rights activism. In virtually everyone’s mind, across the political spectrum, there’s a casual assumption that pro-trans = left wing/progressive, anti-trans = right wing/FACTS DON’T CARE ABOUT FEELINGS, so there’s not really any momentum behind progressive people stepping out of line on it.

[Hoover Attack]

, they would be given a wider birth now?

[Long slender neck]

I received the following from my employer and was wondering if ceb could fact check it for me?

Since the NHS imposed restrictions on treatment for young trans people in 2020, deaths have surged. As the questioning of the existence of trans people continues, the hate crime statistics released by the Office of National Statistics in 2023 show an increase by 11% in hate crimes against trans people in a year since 2022, and by 186% in the five years prior

[Max B Gold]

I received the following from my employer and was wondering if ceb could fact check it for me?

Since the NHS imposed restrictions on treatment for young trans people in 2020, deaths have surged. As the questioning of the existence of trans people continues, the hate crime statistics released by the Office of National Statistics in 2023 show an increase by 11% in hate crimes against trans people in a year since 2022, and by 186% in the five years prior

He's probably on the case already but in a left wing progressive kind of way. He doesn't care about hate crimes against trans people and his radical role in poisoning the well.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

I received the following from my employer and was wondering if ceb could fact check it for me?

Since the NHS imposed restrictions on treatment for young trans people in 2020, deaths have surged. As the questioning of the existence of trans people continues, the hate crime statistics released by the Office of National Statistics in 2023 show an increase by 11% in hate crimes against trans people in a year since 2022, and by 186% in the five years prior

There’s no evidence that suicide of trans people has surged since the NHS began advocating more holistic treatment for dysphoria.

The increase in “hate crime” directed against the group of people who call themselves “trans” is, funnily enough, not about people becoming less tolerant of people who don’t adhere to gender norms in the last five years, but is due to the widening of the definition of “hate crime” against trans people to include “misgendering”, at a time where the extent to which gender identity should overwrite sex in law is in dispute.

Improtantly, the increase is in *reporting* of such incidents, not in convictions.
Cheers

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

(additionally, every suicide/mental health organisation advises strongly against ascribing external causes of suicide. It would be quite surprising were there to be a surge of suicides where the cause was concluded to be a change of approach to how distress is treated.

One might also say that if it were the case that in the absence of hormones and surgery, people with dysphoria are at a far higher risk of suicide, that that would rather undermine the case that gender dysphoria is not a mental health issue)