Israel

[Jeremy Bentham]

100%

But not really 100% as you’ve not bolded the key final part. Based on your allusions to Zionist-controlled media and the Israel lobby, you’re a daft antisemite who thinks Zionism is Netanyahu. Zionism is the right to self determination, something most races and ethnicities outside of the MENA region and Latin America have. Being anti-Zionist would mean removing all states with a religious element so I assume you feel as strongly about Saudi Arabia, the Vatican and the UK?

Did you actually read the bit in bold? I'll repeat it for you so you're clear.

"Jews can determine what they like. But it shouldn’t come at the cost of another people." Zionism is based on stealing another people's land. No ethnic group has a right to somebody else's land.

To make things worse, Zionism actually depended on antisemitism to advance the project and was always doomed to failure, there will never be peace in Israel without a single democratic state where ALL citizens are treated as equal from the river to the sea.

More detail here https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/

P.S. I am the son of a Holocaust survivor and my mother was descended from Sephardic Jews so, although I don't identify as a Jew, my DNA certainly is majority Jewish and I have marched many times in solidarity with the Jewish Bloc in London.

[Currywurst and Chips]

I’ve lost track of who’s saying what now because someone broke the quote function

[Hoover Attack]

But not really 100% as you’ve not bolded the key final part. Based on your allusions to Zionist-controlled media and the Israel lobby, you’re a daft antisemite who thinks Zionism is Netanyahu. Zionism is the right to self determination, something most races and ethnicities outside of the MENA region and Latin America have. Being anti-Zionist would mean removing all states with a religious element so I assume you feel as strongly about Saudi Arabia, the Vatican and the UK?

Did you actually read the bit in bold? I'll repeat it for you so you're clear.

"Jews can determine what they like. But it shouldn’t come at the cost of another people." Zionism is based on stealing another people's land. No ethnic group has a right to somebody else's land.

To make things worse, Zionism actually depended on antisemitism to advance the project and was always doomed to failure, there will never be peace in Israel without a single democratic state where ALL citizens are treated as equal from the river to the sea.

More detail here https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/

P.S. I am the son of a Holocaust survivor and my mother was descended from Sephardic Jews so, although I don't identify as a Jew, my DNA certainly is majority Jewish and I have marched many times in solidarity with the Jewish Bloc in London.

I’ve lost track of who’s saying what now because someone broke the quote function

Proper confusing, ain’t it?

[Dunners]

Why is it that far left loonies and right wing nut jobs all seem to have this boardin' defect in common?

[Hoover Attack]

I was only pretending I couldn’t quote properly.

[Max B Gold]

Me too. Although I note that my post revealing that the Amsterdam pogrom was completely made up by the MSM has gone unremarked upon.

[George M]

Me too. Although I note that my post revealing that the Amsterdam pogrom was completely made up by the MSM has gone unremarked upon.

It has been superseded by the pogrom in Paris last night. You are way behind

[Max B Gold]

Yes, yes but I'm nostalgic and want to talk about old made up pogroms and the complicity of the MSM to propagate outright lies even after the truth was presented to them on a plate. We still want truth don't we?

[George M]

Yes, yes but I'm nostalgic and want to talk about old made up pogroms and the complicity of the MSM to propagate outright lies even after the truth was presented to them on a plate. We still want truth don't we?

Israel’s truth or the real truth.

[Max B Gold]

The difficulty with Israel's propoganda and lies is that the MSM pick them up and present them as truth.

In the case of the Amsterdam pogrom there were two independent journalists who witnessed the pogrom and were reporting that the hooded thugs dishing out pogromatic level violence were Maccabi stormtroopers battering Dutch citizens.

When one of them contacted the MSM to point this out the MSM failed to correct their reports to reflect the facts. One wonders where the pressure to continue the lie comes from.

You should watch the video above that I posted. Its very clear about what actually happened.

[faldO]

You should watch the video above that I posted. Its very clear about what actually happened.

Is that the one you posted as yourself or the one you posted as Jeremy Bentham?

I watched the Owen Jones one and it was hysterical in both the meanings of the word.

[e15O]

But not really 100% as you’ve not bolded the key final part. Based on your allusions to Zionist-controlled media and the Israel lobby, you’re a daft antisemite who thinks Zionism is Netanyahu. Zionism is the right to self determination, something most races and ethnicities outside of the MENA region and Latin America have. Being anti-Zionist would mean removing all states with a religious element so I assume you feel as strongly about Saudi Arabia, the Vatican and the UK?

Did you actually read the bit in bold? I'll repeat it for you so you're clear.

"Jews can determine what they like. But it shouldn’t come at the cost of another people." Zionism is based on stealing another people's land. No ethnic group has a right to somebody else's land.

To make things worse, Zionism actually depended on antisemitism to advance the project and was always doomed to failure, there will never be peace in Israel without a single democratic state where ALL citizens are treated as equal from the river to the sea.

More detail here https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/

P.S. I am the son of a Holocaust survivor and my mother was descended from Sephardic Jews so, although I don't identify as a Jew, my DNA certainly is majority Jewish and I have marched many times in solidarity with the Jewish Bloc in London.

JVP isn’t the most coherent/logical group of people so not going to click on that.

However, I generally agree with you from an ideology point of view. I’m not massively in favour of states built upon a particular religious ideology and would rather a democratic state with Jews, Arab Muslims and Arab Christians; all of whom have rightful and valid ties to the land.

Where our views start to diverge is that I don’t think this would work in practice, based on the hundreds of years of subjugation, pogroms and persecution of Jews in the wider Arab world (incidentally the reason why Ashkenazi Jews in Eastern Europe existed).

For clarity, I disagree entirely with the current Israeli government, would happily see Netanyahu in front of a firing squad and want a complete withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank. Where I disagree is that the levels of antisemitism and the Jewish experience in the Arab world necessitates a safe haven for Jews, which can only be in the place that’s central to Judaism.

For what it’s worth, no land would have been stolen had the Arabs agreed to share the land back in 1947. There should be some right of return but no idea how this would work - 5m immigrating would not be sustainable.

[Max B Gold]

You should watch the video above that I posted. Its very clear about what actually happened.

Is that the one you posted as yourself or the one you posted as Jeremy Bentham?

I watched the Owen Jones one and it was hysterical in both the meanings of the word.

I'm not Jeremy Bentham. HTH.

Can we talk more about the important points I raised before we descend further into a dystopian lie ridden quagmire.

[Max B Gold]

Did you actually read the bit in bold? I'll repeat it for you so you're clear.

"Jews can determine what they like. But it shouldn’t come at the cost of another people." Zionism is based on stealing another people's land. No ethnic group has a right to somebody else's land.

To make things worse, Zionism actually depended on antisemitism to advance the project and was always doomed to failure, there will never be peace in Israel without a single democratic state where ALL citizens are treated as equal from the river to the sea.

More detail here https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/

P.S. I am the son of a Holocaust survivor and my mother was descended from Sephardic Jews so, although I don't identify as a Jew, my DNA certainly is majority Jewish and I have marched many times in solidarity with the Jewish Bloc in London.

JVP isn’t the most coherent/logical group of people so not going to click on that.

However, I generally agree with you from an ideology point of view. I’m not massively in favour of states built upon a particular religious ideology and would rather a democratic state with Jews, Arab Muslims and Arab Christians; all of whom have rightful and valid ties to the land.

Where our views start to diverge is that I don’t think this would work in practice, based on the hundreds of years of subjugation, pogroms and persecution of Jews in the wider Arab world (incidentally the reason why Ashkenazi Jews in Eastern Europe existed).

For clarity, I disagree entirely with the current Israeli government, would happily see Netanyahu in front of a firing squad and want a complete withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank. Where I disagree is that the levels of antisemitism and the Jewish experience in the Arab world necessitates a safe haven for Jews, which can only be in the place that’s central to Judaism.

For what it’s worth, no land would have been stolen had the Arabs agreed to share the land back in 1947. There should be some right of return but no idea how this would work - 5m immigrating would not be sustainable.

If only the Arabs had agreed to share there wouldn't be any current day issues. Laughable.

Tell that to the native Americans.

[e15O]

JVP isn’t the most coherent/logical group of people so not going to click on that.

However, I generally agree with you from an ideology point of view. I’m not massively in favour of states built upon a particular religious ideology and would rather a democratic state with Jews, Arab Muslims and Arab Christians; all of whom have rightful and valid ties to the land.

Where our views start to diverge is that I don’t think this would work in practice, based on the hundreds of years of subjugation, pogroms and persecution of Jews in the wider Arab world (incidentally the reason why Ashkenazi Jews in Eastern Europe existed).

For clarity, I disagree entirely with the current Israeli government, would happily see Netanyahu in front of a firing squad and want a complete withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank. Where I disagree is that the levels of antisemitism and the Jewish experience in the Arab world necessitates a safe haven for Jews, which can only be in the place that’s central to Judaism.

For what it’s worth, no land would have been stolen had the Arabs agreed to share the land back in 1947. There should be some right of return but no idea how this would work - 5m immigrating would not be sustainable.

If only the Arabs had agreed to share there wouldn't be any current day issues. Laughable.

Tell that to the native Americans.

Not sure what the colonisation that displaced the native Americans from America has to do with the native Arabs from Arabia refusing to share land.

[BoniO]

How was this "sharing land" offer made to the Arab indigenous population? Was it something like "you know this land you've all been living on for generations? Well, how about you bugger off all the best land and let us take it? But don't worry you can keep the semi-desert. Well, you can keep it until we decide that we might want it after all!"

[Bandy Legs]

How was this "sharing land" offer made to the Arab indigenous population? Was it something like "you know this land you've all been living on for generations? Well, how about you bugger off all the best land and let us take it? But don't worry you can keep the semi-desert. Well, you can keep it until we decide that we might want it after all!"

Bugger off & let us give it to somebody else you mean?

[Max B Gold]

JVP isn’t the most coherent/logical group of people so not going to click on that.

However, I generally agree with you from an ideology point of view. I’m not massively in favour of states built upon a particular religious ideology and would rather a democratic state with Jews, Arab Muslims and Arab Christians; all of whom have rightful and valid ties to the land.

Where our views start to diverge is that I don’t think this would work in practice, based on the hundreds of years of subjugation, pogroms and persecution of Jews in the wider Arab world (incidentally the reason why Ashkenazi Jews in Eastern Europe existed).

For clarity, I disagree entirely with the current Israeli government, would happily see Netanyahu in front of a firing squad and want a complete withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank. Where I disagree is that the levels of antisemitism and the Jewish experience in the Arab world necessitates a safe haven for Jews, which can only be in the place that’s central to Judaism.

For what it’s worth, no land would have been stolen had the Arabs agreed to share the land back in 1947. There should be some right of return but no idea how this would work - 5m immigrating would not be sustainable.

If only the Arabs had agreed to share there wouldn't be any current day issues. Laughable.

Tell that to the native Americans.

Not sure what the colonisation that displaced the native Americans from America has to do with the native Arabs from Arabia refusing to share land.

Yet another thing you are unsure of. I suspect it's just one of many on an ever growing list.

[George M]

And all the while the genocide continues unopposed

[Jeremy Bentham]

Did you actually read the bit in bold? I'll repeat it for you so you're clear.

"Jews can determine what they like. But it shouldn’t come at the cost of another people." Zionism is based on stealing another people's land. No ethnic group has a right to somebody else's land.

To make things worse, Zionism actually depended on antisemitism to advance the project and was always doomed to failure, there will never be peace in Israel without a single democratic state where ALL citizens are treated as equal from the river to the sea.

More detail here https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/

P.S. I am the son of a Holocaust survivor and my mother was descended from Sephardic Jews so, although I don't identify as a Jew, my DNA certainly is majority Jewish and I have marched many times in solidarity with the Jewish Bloc in London.

JVP isn’t the most coherent/logical group of people so not going to click on that.

However, I generally agree with you from an ideology point of view. I’m not massively in favour of states built upon a particular religious ideology and would rather a democratic state with Jews, Arab Muslims and Arab Christians; all of whom have rightful and valid ties to the land.

Where our views start to diverge is that I don’t think this would work in practice, based on the hundreds of years of subjugation, pogroms and persecution of Jews in the wider Arab world (incidentally the reason why Ashkenazi Jews in Eastern Europe existed).

For clarity, I disagree entirely with the current Israeli government, would happily see Netanyahu in front of a firing squad and want a complete withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank. Where I disagree is that the levels of antisemitism and the Jewish experience in the Arab world necessitates a safe haven for Jews, which can only be in the place that’s central to Judaism.

For what it’s worth, no land would have been stolen had the Arabs agreed to share the land back in 1947. There should be some right of return but no idea how this would work - 5m immigrating would not be sustainable.

JVP isn’t the most coherent/logical group of people so not going to click on that.

They are one of the leading groups organising in the US and consist of a lot of young Jewish people who have moved on from the indoctrination about Israel. I would be interested to know why you think they are not coherent/logical. I recommend Israelism if you want to see how a lot of young American Jews are thinking.



Where our views start to diverge is that I don’t think this would work in practice, based on the hundreds of years of subjugation, pogroms and persecution of Jews in the wider Arab world

As I understand it, Jews, Muslims and Christians generally lived peacefully alongside each other in Palestine before Zionism took hold and anyway it would be different now as modern democratic states do not allow mob violence (or haven't up till now...) There are currently 118000 Jews living safely and peacefully in Germany, a state that murdered millions of Jews in living memory.

[east saxon gas]

JVP isn’t the most coherent/logical group of people so not going to click on that.

However, I generally agree with you from an ideology point of view. I’m not massively in favour of states built upon a particular religious ideology and would rather a democratic state with Jews, Arab Muslims and Arab Christians; all of whom have rightful and valid ties to the land.

Where our views start to diverge is that I don’t think this would work in practice, based on the hundreds of years of subjugation, pogroms and persecution of Jews in the wider Arab world (incidentally the reason why Ashkenazi Jews in Eastern Europe existed).

For clarity, I disagree entirely with the current Israeli government, would happily see Netanyahu in front of a firing squad and want a complete withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank. Where I disagree is that the levels of antisemitism and the Jewish experience in the Arab world necessitates a safe haven for Jews, which can only be in the place that’s central to Judaism.

For what it’s worth, no land would have been stolen had the Arabs agreed to share the land back in 1947. There should be some right of return but no idea how this would work - 5m immigrating would not be sustainable.

JVP isn’t the most coherent/logical group of people so not going to click on that.

They are one of the leading groups organising in the US and consist of a lot of young Jewish people who have moved on from the indoctrination about Israel. I would be interested to know why you think they are not coherent/logical. I recommend Israelism if you want to see how a lot of young American Jews are thinking.



Where our views start to diverge is that I don’t think this would work in practice, based on the hundreds of years of subjugation, pogroms and persecution of Jews in the wider Arab world

As I understand it, Jews, Muslims and Christians generally lived peacefully alongside each other in Palestine before Zionism took hold and anyway it would be different now as modern democratic states do not allow mob violence (or haven't up till now...) There are currently 118000 Jews living safely and peacefully in Germany, a state that murdered millions of Jews in living memory.

that's tendentious, but very well done, and worth a watch

[Dunners]

As I understand it, Jews, Muslims and Christians generally lived peacefully alongside each other in Palestine before Zionism took hold and anyway it would be different now as modern democratic states do not allow mob violence (or haven't up till now...) There are currently 118000 Jews living safely and peacefully in Germany, a state that murdered millions of Jews in living memory.

There's a lot to (respectfully) pick apart here.

The region has always been volatile. Whether it be due to the ambitions of Persian or Ottoman rulers through to pan-Arabic conflicts. Sure, you could say the same about most regions, but Zionism has not resulted in anything materially different.

But I think you are assuming that, without Zionism, the emergence of democratic nation states would have been the natural order for the region. I think that's a huge assumption and one which many of the regions opponents of Israel would be quick to dismiss.

[Max B Gold]

I'm thinking a full blown Zionist led Genocide is "materially different".

[Dunners]

Depends on your definition of materially significant.

There's been an estimated 500K fatalities in Syria, 400K in Yeman, 300K in Iraq, 250K in Afghanistan...

I could go on, but even if we pause there and take the estimated 40K dead in Gaza as correct, that's less than 3% of deaths in current or very recent conflicts for the region.

[Dunners]

Still, at least when some poor Syrian was about to be beheaded by Shamima's boyfriend, they would have taken some comfort that they were not about to be genocided by the evil Zionists.