Would we be better off without Martin Ling?

[The Reverend]

It seems like on here, for some the role of DoF is “punching bag when we’d ideally not turn on the manager”

The reality is that the whole point of a DoF is to take care of a longer term view, immune from direct responsibility for, say, a run of bad results.

In practice, when there’s a popular manager and new signings haven’t worked out or seem cheap, it seems like it’s just a quite lazy option to suddenly turn on the DoF after several years of growth and development.

It may well be that Ling does have a ceiling of what he can do, but the time to judge that should be after an extended period of the club seeming to lack direction or a vision. That doesn’t seem to be what’s happening at the moment
Right now, i would say that that doesn’t seem to

I don’t necessarily disagree with any of this, however I would point out that there’s a bit more to it than Wellens just being a “popular manager”.

In interviews he has frequently mentioned specific positions / types of player (e.g. experienced) that he would like to complete his squad. And yet time and again the signings that Wellens has indicated he wants have not materialised. So what’s going on?

1. Is Wellens talking pish in these interviews and he doesn’t really want the types of player he is talking about?

This would be quite an odd thing for him to do.

2. Is Wellens being serious but making demands that are deemed unreasonable/unfeasible to those who actually make/approve signings?

Then someone up top needs to have a word with Wellens to prevent him continually undermining those who pay his wages in interviews.

3. Is Wellens being serious, and the demands are reasonable/feasible but for some reason we’re failing to make those signings

Then it’s not unreasonable to question whether the DoF is doing a good job.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

Would you like me to clarify, or shall I just wait for Dunners to rephrase my point so your ego can stand it?

[The Reverend]

Would you like me to clarify, or shall I just wait for Dunners to rephrase my point so your ego can stand it?

I understand that it is probably hard to believe but I genuinely think you often raise decent points when it comes to the football side of things. Obviously you can choose to ignore me if you want but I’m engaging with you in earnest here.

[Monkey Boy]

Would you like me to clarify, or shall I just wait for Dunners to rephrase my point so your ego can stand it?

I understand that it is probably hard to believe but I genuinely think you often raise decent points when it comes to the football side of things. Obviously you can choose to ignore me if you want but I’m engaging with you in earnest here.

Your waisting your time on here,some like to argue for argue sake no matter what. As for your points you raised I’m now thinking RW has been indoctrinated in the Orient way of thinking. By this I mean, say one thing and do another just to get the supporters off there back. Basically turning him into the front man instead of Ling. Looking ahead I can’t honestly see where the next win is coming from. All the hard work that’s been done over the last few season's, i really fear for the supporters because at this point I can only see relegation

[Proposition Joe]

By this I mean, say one thing and do another just to get the supporters off there back.

As a genius boardroom ploy, how's that working out?

[Monkey Boy]

By this I mean, say one thing and do another just to get the supporters off there back.

As a genius boardroom ploy, how's that working out?

You tell me? But I don’t really care

[BiggsyMalone]

Would you like me to clarify, or shall I just wait for Dunners to rephrase my point so your ego can stand it?

I understand that it is probably hard to believe but I genuinely think you often raise decent points when it comes to the football side of things. Obviously you can choose to ignore me if you want but I’m engaging with you in earnest here.

Your waisting your time on here,some like to argue for argue sake no matter what. As for your points you raised I’m now thinking RW has been indoctrinated in the Orient way of thinking. By this I mean, say one thing and do another just to get the supporters off there back. Basically turning him into the front man instead of Ling. Looking ahead I can’t honestly see where the next win is coming from. All the hard work that’s been done over the last few season's, i really fear for the supporters because at this point I can only see relegation

People don’t argue for arguments sake. People like you post complete nonsense on a regular basis and don’t like being questioned on it.

[Monkey Boy]

I understand that it is probably hard to believe but I genuinely think you often raise decent points when it comes to the football side of things. Obviously you can choose to ignore me if you want but I’m engaging with you in earnest here.

Your waisting your time on here,some like to argue for argue sake no matter what. As for your points you raised I’m now thinking RW has been indoctrinated in the Orient way of thinking. By this I mean, say one thing and do another just to get the supporters off there back. Basically turning him into the front man instead of Ling. Looking ahead I can’t honestly see where the next win is coming from. All the hard work that’s been done over the last few season's, i really fear for the supporters because at this point I can only see relegation

People don’t argue for arguments sake. People like you post complete nonsense on a regular basis and don’t like being questioned on it.

Ok but I have a question for you, wasn’t you the idiot who slagged off the woman in the office for not sorting your ticket out.wasn’t you the one that was very very personal towards her. And wasn’t you the person that had to eat humble pie backtrack and apologise for arguing with her thus arguing over arguments sake. Boom

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

Think I prefer the original verse to I Will Survive

[BiggsyMalone]

Your waisting your time on here,some like to argue for argue sake no matter what. As for your points you raised I’m now thinking RW has been indoctrinated in the Orient way of thinking. By this I mean, say one thing and do another just to get the supporters off there back. Basically turning him into the front man instead of Ling. Looking ahead I can’t honestly see where the next win is coming from. All the hard work that’s been done over the last few season's, i really fear for the supporters because at this point I can only see relegation

People don’t argue for arguments sake. People like you post complete nonsense on a regular basis and don’t like being questioned on it.

Ok but I have a question for you, wasn’t you the idiot who slagged off the woman in the office for not sorting your ticket out.wasn’t you the one that was very very personal towards her. And wasn’t you the person that had to eat humble pie backtrack and apologise for arguing with her thus arguing over arguments sake. Boom

No.

I didn’t “slag off the woman in the ticket office”. I said I hoped Lindsey Martin didn’t win an award bacause of something personal she oversaw and that she had an inability to understand emails. At no point was I “very very personal”. I apologised for being a dickhead when I sobered up and laid most of the blame at the club’s door for leaving the ticket office so exposed every year with a small team.

If you’re going to question me, get all of your facts in line before you do

[Monkey Boy]

People don’t argue for arguments sake. People like you post complete nonsense on a regular basis and don’t like being questioned on it.

Ok but I have a question for you, wasn’t you the idiot who slagged off the woman in the office for not sorting your ticket out.wasn’t you the one that was very very personal towards her. And wasn’t you the person that had to eat humble pie backtrack and apologise for arguing with her thus arguing over arguments sake. Boom

No.

I didn’t “slag off the woman in the ticket office”. I said I hoped Lindsey Martin didn’t win an award bacause of something personal she oversaw and that she had an inability to understand emails. At no point was I “very very personal”. I apologised for being a dickhead when I sobered up and laid most of the blame at the club’s door for leaving the ticket office so exposed every year with a small team.

If you’re going to question me, get all of your facts in line before you do

Yep I think I got it right “ your a willy head” only quoting

[BiggsyMalone]

Ok but I have a question for you, wasn’t you the idiot who slagged off the woman in the office for not sorting your ticket out.wasn’t you the one that was very very personal towards her. And wasn’t you the person that had to eat humble pie backtrack and apologise for arguing with her thus arguing over arguments sake. Boom

No.

I didn’t “slag off the woman in the ticket office”. I said I hoped Lindsey Martin didn’t win an award bacause of something personal she oversaw and that she had an inability to understand emails. At no point was I “very very personal”. I apologised for being a dickhead when I sobered up and laid most of the blame at the club’s door for leaving the ticket office so exposed every year with a small team.

If you’re going to question me, get all of your facts in line before you do

Yep I think I got it right “ your a willy head” only quoting

Two things. You’re not quoting me, I didn’t say that. Also, you want you’re not your.

[Hoover Attack]

Think I prefer the original verse to I Will Survive

[Monkey Boy]

No.

I didn’t “slag off the woman in the ticket office”. I said I hoped Lindsey Martin didn’t win an award bacause of something personal she oversaw and that she had an inability to understand emails. At no point was I “very very personal”. I apologised for being a dickhead when I sobered up and laid most of the blame at the club’s door for leaving the ticket office so exposed every year with a small team.

If you’re going to question me, get all of your facts in line before you do

Yep I think I got it right “ your a willy head” only quoting

Two things. You’re not quoting me, I didn’t say that. Also, you want you’re not your.

Thanks biggsy always get that one wrong now let’s get this straight are you arguing with me for arguments sake or just arguing?

[BiggsyMalone]

Yep I think I got it right “ your a willy head” only quoting

Two things. You’re not quoting me, I didn’t say that. Also, you want you’re not your.

Thanks biggsy always get that one wrong now let’s get this straight are you arguing with me for arguments sake or just arguing?

I’m not arguing. I’m educating.

[Hoover Attack]

He gets an enormous amount of praise from ex players and staff who've been here over the last 6 years. You could see that as being part of a 'comfy' set up, but I think he gets a lot of the off the pitch stuff right that we just don't see and has contributed towards what has been an undeniably very successful period for the club. The way Thompson, as an example, was complimentary about Ling specifically when he was dealing with mental and physical difficulties in that recent Ear interview really stuck out. It sounds like he's a genuinely very decent bloke who clearly loves the club, and is particularly concerned with issues like player welfare and mental health. The club having a good reputation on stuff like that is a low-key huge positive and makes a lot of the personal flack he gets feel a bit mucky.

That said, he's never been a particularly imaginative or consistent recruiter of high quality players. That's reflected in how little we make in transfer fees, which ultimately needs to become a part of our business model if we're going to become more financially sustainable. I think we've probably reached the limit to how far Ling can take us in that respect and it is a difficult question for the ownership on whether we want to aim higher in having our footballing side of things be more innovative so we can punch above our weight, instead of being about where we would expect to be given our resources.

I’m sure he’s a decent bloke. I’m also sure Thommo thinks he’s great, the way Ling has looked after his neighbour these past few years.

I don’t think he comes across very well. I think he’s made loads of wrong calls, some very expensive. I believe a better DoF would have achieved more success with the £10s of millions of pounds the investors have put his way.

Saying that, you can’t argue with 2 promotions in 7 years, it has to be considered a massive success from a fans point of view. But I put that down to 2 lucky appointments in Justin and Richie.

[Monkey Boy]

Two things. You’re not quoting me, I didn’t say that. Also, you want you’re not your.

Thanks biggsy always get that one wrong now let’s get this straight are you arguing with me for arguments sake or just arguing?

I’m not arguing. I’m educating.

You been drinking again?

[OyinbO]

He gets an enormous amount of praise from ex players and staff who've been here over the last 6 years. You could see that as being part of a 'comfy' set up, but I think he gets a lot of the off the pitch stuff right that we just don't see and has contributed towards what has been an undeniably very successful period for the club. The way Thompson, as an example, was complimentary about Ling specifically when he was dealing with mental and physical difficulties in that recent Ear interview really stuck out. It sounds like he's a genuinely very decent bloke who clearly loves the club, and is particularly concerned with issues like player welfare and mental health. The club having a good reputation on stuff like that is a low-key huge positive and makes a lot of the personal flack he gets feel a bit mucky.

That said, he's never been a particularly imaginative or consistent recruiter of high quality players. That's reflected in how little we make in transfer fees, which ultimately needs to become a part of our business model if we're going to become more financially sustainable. I think we've probably reached the limit to how far Ling can take us in that respect and it is a difficult question for the ownership on whether we want to aim higher in having our footballing side of things be more innovative so we can punch above our weight, instead of being about where we would expect to be given our resources.

I’m sure he’s a decent bloke. I’m also sure Thommo thinks he’s great, the way Ling has looked after his neighbour these past few years.

I don’t think he comes across very well. I think he’s made loads of wrong calls, some very expensive. I believe a better DoF would have achieved more success with the £10s of millions of pounds the investors have put his way.

Saying that, you can’t argue with 2 promotions in 7 years, it has to be considered a massive success from a fans point of view. But I put that down to 2 lucky appointments in Justin and Richie.

Also, given the money that's been put in, and the size of Orient as a Club, returning to League One in 6 years is about par for the course.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

I don’t disagree with the points made about Ling over a longer period of time - and I think there are valid critiques.
It’s just that the time to make critiques of a director of football isn’t after an iffy start to the season and a crap transfer window, but as an assessment of, let’s say a rolling two/three year period, at the end of a season.

[Hoover Attack]

I don’t disagree with the points made about Ling over a longer period of time - and I think there are valid critiques.
It’s just that the time to make critiques of a director of football isn’t after an iffy start to the season and a crap transfer window, but as an assessment of, let’s say a rolling two/three year period, at the end of a season.

Absolutely.

This is why I regularly chip in with snidey comments belittling him.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

Unfortunately there is literally no other way than by keeping him on forever

[Mistadobalina]

He gets an enormous amount of praise from ex players and staff who've been here over the last 6 years. You could see that as being part of a 'comfy' set up, but I think he gets a lot of the off the pitch stuff right that we just don't see and has contributed towards what has been an undeniably very successful period for the club. The way Thompson, as an example, was complimentary about Ling specifically when he was dealing with mental and physical difficulties in that recent Ear interview really stuck out. It sounds like he's a genuinely very decent bloke who clearly loves the club, and is particularly concerned with issues like player welfare and mental health. The club having a good reputation on stuff like that is a low-key huge positive and makes a lot of the personal flack he gets feel a bit mucky.

That said, he's never been a particularly imaginative or consistent recruiter of high quality players. That's reflected in how little we make in transfer fees, which ultimately needs to become a part of our business model if we're going to become more financially sustainable. I think we've probably reached the limit to how far Ling can take us in that respect and it is a difficult question for the ownership on whether we want to aim higher in having our footballing side of things be more innovative so we can punch above our weight, instead of being about where we would expect to be given our resources.

I’m sure he’s a decent bloke. I’m also sure Thommo thinks he’s great, the way Ling has looked after his neighbour these past few years.

I don’t think he comes across very well. I think he’s made loads of wrong calls, some very expensive. I believe a better DoF would have achieved more success with the £10s of millions of pounds the investors have put his way.

Saying that, you can’t argue with 2 promotions in 7 years, it has to be considered a massive success from a fans point of view. But I put that down to 2 lucky appointments in Justin and Richie.

But a worse dof would have had less success.

Always a bit baffled by bad appointments being Ling's fault, but good appointments being luck. Wellens is probably the best manager I've seen at Orient. Ling has obviously played a part in bringing and keeping him here.

[Hoover Attack]

Always a bit baffled by bad appointments being Ling's fault, but good appointments being luck. Wellens is probably the best manager I've seen at Orient. Ling has obviously played a part in bringing and keeping him here.

Steve Davis, Ross Emblefud (multiple times), Carl Fletcher, Jobi, Kenny Jackett were all duff appointments. Clearly the trend is to make bad appointments.

Justin and Richie are outliers in this data set.

[redintheface]

Always a bit baffled by bad appointments being Ling's fault, but good appointments being luck. Wellens is probably the best manager I've seen at Orient. Ling has obviously played a part in bringing and keeping him here.

Steve Davis, Ross Emblefud (multiple times), Carl Fletcher, Jobi, Kenny Jackett were all duff appointments. Clearly the trend is to make bad appointments.

Justin and Richie are outliers in this data set.

In fairness I think the McAnuff appointment was not down to Ling.

[Proposition Joe]

He gets an enormous amount of praise from ex players and staff who've been here over the last 6 years. You could see that as being part of a 'comfy' set up, but I think he gets a lot of the off the pitch stuff right that we just don't see and has contributed towards what has been an undeniably very successful period for the club. The way Thompson, as an example, was complimentary about Ling specifically when he was dealing with mental and physical difficulties in that recent Ear interview really stuck out. It sounds like he's a genuinely very decent bloke who clearly loves the club, and is particularly concerned with issues like player welfare and mental health. The club having a good reputation on stuff like that is a low-key huge positive and makes a lot of the personal flack he gets feel a bit mucky.

That said, he's never been a particularly imaginative or consistent recruiter of high quality players. That's reflected in how little we make in transfer fees, which ultimately needs to become a part of our business model if we're going to become more financially sustainable. I think we've probably reached the limit to how far Ling can take us in that respect and it is a difficult question for the ownership on whether we want to aim higher in having our footballing side of things be more innovative so we can punch above our weight, instead of being about where we would expect to be given our resources.

I’m sure he’s a decent bloke. I’m also sure Thommo thinks he’s great, the way Ling has looked after his neighbour these past few years.

I don’t think he comes across very well. I think he’s made loads of wrong calls, some very expensive. I believe a better DoF would have achieved more success with the £10s of millions of pounds the investors have put his way.

Saying that, you can’t argue with 2 promotions in 7 years, it has to be considered a massive success from a fans point of view. But I put that down to 2 lucky appointments in Justin and Richie.

But a worse dof would have had less success.

Always a bit baffled by bad appointments being Ling's fault, but good appointments being luck. Wellens is probably the best manager I've seen at Orient. Ling has obviously played a part in bringing and keeping him here.

Same for everything. Bad signings = Ling's fault. Good signings = down to the manager.