To avoid derailing the Olympics thread…

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

I think Sean Ingle’s reporting is neutral, it’s just that being committed to reporting the full facts on this is itself something that is framed as a politically slanted act.

(That is to say, I don’t think Ingle has called Khelif a man, used male pronouns, or offered a view on whether he should participate; he’s just reported the whole story)

But I am interested (genuinely) in what aspects of Ingle’s reporting does come over as biased as, whether from deep in a rabbit hole or not, I obviously come at this from an angle

[Long slender neck]

So khelif has been tested independently, but we don't know what the tests exactly were?

If you had nothing to hide you'd just go and get another test and publish the results right?

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

So khelif has been tested independently, but we don't know what the tests exactly were?

If you had nothing to hide you'd just go and get another test and publish the results right?

We know what was tested and what the results were by inference.
The only thing we don’t “know” about the test is the fact of what was found, but that’s only because of the obvious confidentiality of testing. The IBA have, in recent days, invited people to “read between the lines” and the article I linked to the other day was written by someone who has seen the tests.

So, these are the facts from which we can draw inference:

1: the IBA categorises “male” as XY and “female” as XX (that’s their categorisation, to be clear, not the be all and end all of the discussion)

2: the IBA’s female category is open only to those who fit their criteria of “female”

3: after complaints from other sporting bodies, Khelif was targeted for sex testing

4: the sex testing determined that Khelif was not eligible for the female category

[Dunners]

They is a geezer.

[Currywurst and Chips]

But everything about her presents as female…..

[Rich Tea Wellin]

lol https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... ng-lawsuit

[Currywurst and Chips]

lol a doomed to fail cry bully attempt

Wonder how far French courts allow for discovery though, could be deliciously counter productive for Kehlif

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

Oh I would *love* for him to actually do this. As Pammy says, discovery would be fun.

But again, to stick to facts:

1: Khelif is male with a disorder of sexual development that only impacts males
2: He has not appealed the sex testing that found him ineligible for the female category,
3: therefore there is obviously no basis whatsoever to claim that calling him male amounts to “cyber bullying”

[Proposition Joe]

I think Sean Ingle’s reporting is neutral, it’s just that being committed to reporting the full facts on this is itself something that is framed as a politically slanted act.

(That is to say, I don’t think Ingle has called Khelif a man, used male pronouns, or offered a view on whether he should participate; he’s just reported the whole story)

But I am interested (genuinely) in what aspects of Ingle’s reporting does come over as biased as, whether from deep in a rabbit hole or not, I obviously come at this from an angle

From what I saw - not pretending I did a deep dive or anything - it wasn't so much his reporting which came across as non-neutral, but his social media posts.

[faldO]

The row about men in women's sport looks set to continue in the Paralympics, where trans women are allowed to compete in female categories if they are legally recognised as women (unlike the Olympics).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/cpvymmpyjeko

[Currywurst and Chips]

50 year old winning medals in the women’s division

[Currywurst and Chips]

Stunning and brave

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

Everything about her presents as female

[Sid Bishop]

Everything about her presents as female

Perez Lopez without a doubt YES.
Valentina Petrillo NO.

Petrillo won 11 national titles in the male T12 category for athletes with visual impairment between 2015 and 2018.
With her wife's support, in 2018 she started living as a woman, and in January 2019 she began hormone therapy.
In 2021, the Italian said in an interview with the BBC that her metabolism changed, resulting in her not being "the energetic person" that she was prior to the hormone therapy, which resulted in her times being slower.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/cx2g17w32w4o

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

Phew thanks for that Sid

[Sid Bishop]

Phew thanks for that Sid

looks like a man with long hair and strange one here ''Petrillo won 11 national titles in the male T12 category for athletes with visual impairment between 2015 and 2018'' Oh ok and so now running in women's events.
Also ''With her wife's support, in 2018 she started living as a woman, and in January 2019 she began hormone therapy''
Wonder if she had any children with her wife ?

[Long slender neck]

Two kids.

Seems like a very late age to transition.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

Always knew apparently. Used to secretly dress in his mums clothes.
Have a guess which of his mums clothes it was.
Was it…
A: his mums woolly jumper
B: his mum’s winter coat
C: his mums bra and knickers

[Currywurst and Chips]

A “leaked report” detailing Khelif’s condition is circulating on X.

When/if it’s been verified by a reasonable source it will be shared

[Dunners]

Heh. You'd have some balls to share it now before it's been verified.

[Currywurst and Chips]

Agree

I could write it small but a Micro pen is not an option on this site

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

I wonder if it shows that Khelif has the exact condition that I claimed months ago?

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

lol https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... ng-lawsuit

Haven’t been following this - assuming JK Rowling is now in prison?

[Currywurst and Chips]

Times of India now reporting it, getting closer to a decent source

The MRI scan bit of the story is such a low blow

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

…because above all, the whole point of any discourse around eligibility is so that the Olympics can, as far as possible, celebrate exceptional athletes doing exceptional things, so for that reason, the controversy is maybe best discussed elsewhere.
It’s also not appropriate for the “Trans Debate” thread, because there’s no suggestion at the moment that the boxer at the centre of the controversy has asserted a transgender identity.

So this thread is where I’ll do my best to clear up any misconceptions (and by god there are a lot) that were in the Olympics thread yesterday.
I’ll tell you what I think and why, and i’ll be clear to differentiate fact from my opinion

I’ll start with the most pertinent detail, in my considered opinion: Khelife is almost certainly male. With “almost” meaning “unless Khelife has a condition that up until now has never, ever been observed”

The stuff doing the rounds about being “born female”, about “being a girl with a rare condition resulting in XY chromosomes” is nothing more than speculation based on misunderstandings, which are themselves based on misinformation; in terms of what is referred to by “born female” in those assertions, what is actually meant is “at birth, Khelife’s sex was recorded as female, and Khelife was most likely raised as a child by a family who had a sincere belief that Khelife was female”

The suggestion that Khelife has a female reproductive system is baseless speculation based on social media claims (none with any source) that Khelife has a disorder of sexual development called Swyers Syndrome. As well as being baseless, it’s also vanishingly unlikely to be true, since Swyer syndrome does not result in the masculinisation that clearly happened to Khelife’s body during puberty.

The disorder that Khelife almost certainly has is one that occurs exclusively in male people, and is called 5-ARD.it is not a “rare condition in females”, but a “rare condition in males that often results in incorrect observation of sex”

What happens with this condition is this.

During pregnancy the foetus initially develops as a normal healthy male - testicles, testosterone, anatomy.

The baby however, lacks a protein that triggers development of the penis.
The result of this is that the external genitalia can resemble that of females at birth, and be recorded as such.
The child however, has internal testicles capable of one day producing sperm, and no female reproductive system

In childhood, usually nothing happens to signal that the sex has been wrongly recorded.

At 11 or 12 though - male puberty kicks in in and huge amounts of testosterone impact the body in the way it does all males, and it actually triggers a masculinisation of the genitals too. The child develops physically like any other male, strength, height, speed, voice breaking, sexual maturation (including sperm production in the undescended testicles) - the child actually experiences standard male puberty, with the impact on potential performance that it has in any male.



Why do I believe Khelife has that DSD?

These reasons
1: it is extremely unlikely that an Algerian family decided to raise an obviously male child as if female, or that a young Algerian boy pressed to be treated as a girl. There are photos of Khelife as a child, and from those one can conclude that there was a sincere belief that Khelife was a female child

2: Khelife’s body has clearly gone through a masculinisation process consistent with that of a male with the disorder of sexual development described above

3: sex tests to determine eligibility have found that Khelife has XY chromosomes and testosterone in the male range - statistically there is zero overlap between the highest levels of testosterone in females and the lowest of that in males. The only way a female would have testosterone that high is with doping.

4: The IOC’s criteria for eligibility is “sex recorded on passport”, and has not carried out any further tests on top of those by the IBA that found Khelife to be male

5: many sporting bodies actually scout for young people who are likely to have this specific DSD, for the specific reason that their DSD and the erroneous sex category in which they have been in since birth, makes them good bets for athletic success, especially where (as with the IOC) there is no sex testing of any sort


So when Dunners suggested that the complexity around this was because this is a female with a rare condition, he’s incorrect. It’s based on this misconception; that being *socialised* as a girl, with a sincere belief of being a girl (as Khelife was and probably had) means that Khelife actually was female; those people saying “Khelife isn’t trans, she was born a woman” are actually meaning “Khelife has never asserted a trans identity - a girl identity is something Khelife didn’t choose”


And that gets us onto why the subject matters, and why it’s evil TERFs complaining about it; the problem with males who identify as trans in female sport isn’t trans identity, isn’t lippy, isn’t heels, isn’t fake tits. It’s being male. Athletes with the DSD that Khelife almost certainly has are also male.


Hope this helps - Adz I saw your question in the other thread midway through typing it, hopefully this answers your question, as well as shows why sex determination isn’t as simple as “so you’re saying she DOESNT have a vagina”

Ahem…