Farage - whose side is he on?

[E10EU]

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/ ... -dangerous

Putin and Trump love him.
But why would any ordinary British citizen just trying to have a decent, peaceful and secure life vote for him?
For starters: he supports privatised health care (meaning it's for profit).

[Adz]

He's on his own side, he doesn't give a toss about anyone else, much like Putin and Trump.

As to why anyone would vote for him, same as Trump, a protest vote against the existing system.

[DrWindy]

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/ ... -dangerous

Putin and Trump love him.
But why would any ordinary British citizen just trying to have a decent, peaceful and secure life vote for him?
For starters: he supports privatised health care (meaning it's for profit).

What is wrong with private healthcare? It doesn’t have to be to the detriment of the NHS. If people want to choose to pay for their own treatment you think that should be banned? How strange.

[Long slender neck]

I got a Reform leaflet through the door titled "The immigration election".

Says it all.

[o-no]

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/ ... -dangerous

Putin and Trump love him.
But why would any ordinary British citizen just trying to have a decent, peaceful and secure life vote for him?
For starters: he supports privatised health care (meaning it's for profit).

What is wrong with private healthcare? It doesn’t have to be to the detriment of the NHS. If people want to choose to pay for their own treatment you think that should be banned? How strange.

I guess the argument would be the private healthcare providers are using NHS resources, paid for by all of us, which could otherwise have been used in the NHS. As a doctor, I thought you'd have known this

[DrWindy]

It’s an argument full of holes. I assume using that logic Uber should also be banned?

[Max B Gold]

It’s an argument full of holes. I assume using that logic Uber should also be banned?

Hardly a comparison and yes Uber should be banned. Their dynamic pricing model is a rip off as is the cut they take from drivers to mention two things.

Are you advocating dynamic pricing for private health care? Private health cannot exist without the use of NHS resourced staff, training, labs etc.

[Max B Gold]

He's on his own side, he doesn't give a toss about anyone else, much like Putin and Trump.

As to why anyone would vote for him, same as Trump, a protest vote against the existing system.

Other than being in it for themselves can you think of any other reasons they might be in it for?

[DrWindy]

It’s an argument full of holes. I assume using that logic Uber should also be banned?

Hardly a comparison and yes Uber should be banned. Their dynamic pricing model is a rip off as is the cut they take from drivers to mention two things.

Are you advocating dynamic pricing for private health care? Private health cannot exist without the use of NHS resourced staff, training, labs etc.

Have you never been in a private hospital? I am pretty sure I didn’t imagine it.

[Hoover Attack]

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/ ... -dangerous

Putin and Trump love him.
But why would any ordinary British citizen just trying to have a decent, peaceful and secure life vote for him?
For starters: he supports privatised health care (meaning it's for profit).

What is wrong with private healthcare? It doesn’t have to be to the detriment of the NHS. If people want to choose to pay for their own treatment you think that should be banned? How strange.

Yes. Same with private schooling.

Everyone should be entitled to the same excellent standards of healthcare and education, regardless of how wealthy they or mater and pater are.


See how quickly our hospitals and schools improve when the wealthy don’t have an alternative option.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

I obviously don’t agree with anything he says or does. He’s a chancer that plays on the vulnerable for his own benefit.

What I will say is that the nhs will never improve when the conversation around it fundamentally being flawed. It’s too enshrined in peoples minds (and rightly so in lots of ways) but it’s currently a money pit that doesn’t work for many people

[DrWindy]

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/ ... -dangerous

Putin and Trump love him.
But why would any ordinary British citizen just trying to have a decent, peaceful and secure life vote for him?
For starters: he supports privatised health care (meaning it's for profit).

What is wrong with private healthcare? It doesn’t have to be to the detriment of the NHS. If people want to choose to pay for their own treatment you think that should be banned? How strange.

Yes. Same with private schooling.

Everyone should be entitled to the same excellent standards of healthcare and education, regardless of how wealthy they or mater and pater are.


See how quickly our hospitals and schools improve when the wealthy don’t have an alternative option.

Of course they should I wholeheartedly agree. But that shouldn’t remove the choice for others.

[Max B Gold]

I obviously don’t agree with anything he says or does. He’s a chancer that plays on the vulnerable for his own benefit.

What I will say is that the nhs will never improve when the conversation around it fundamentally being flawed. It’s too enshrined in peoples minds (and rightly so in lots of ways) but it’s currently a money pit that doesn’t work for many people

An underfunded money pit. Whatever next?

[Hoover Attack]

Of course they should I wholeheartedly agree. But that shouldn’t remove the choice for others.

So long as there is a cop out for the wealthiest and most powerful, there won't be an adequate provision for everyone.

[Max B Gold]

Of course they should I wholeheartedly agree. But that shouldn’t remove the choice for others.

So long as there is a cop out for the wealthiest and most powerful, there won't be an adequate provision for everyone.

Correct. The very existence of "choice" is detrimental to the NHS. It isn't a choice the vast majority of the population can exercise.

[Hoover Attack]

If Sunak had to wait in line at A&E like the rest of us, and the mini Sunaks had to attend their local state school despite the billions of pounds they have, you can guarantee that he'd make sure schools and hospitals were better resourced.

[DrWindy]

Of course they should I wholeheartedly agree. But that shouldn’t remove the choice for others.

So long as there is a cop out for the wealthiest and most powerful, there won't be an adequate provision for everyone.

Correct. The very existence of "choice" is detrimental to the NHS. It isn't a choice the vast majority of the population can exercise.

It’s not a view I agree with. I think you think that the NHS would be better if the private sector didn’t exist. I don’t think that logic stacks up with any meaningful evidence.

You believe if Uber or taxis were not available then public transport would be better? I don’t think so.

[Dunners]

In a theoretical sense, they are absolutely correct. The element of choice, which can only be a afforded to the relatively privileged, will always undermine the basic provision to the masses.

But elite hierarchies emerge in all primate societies, so preventing an element of choice from ever emerging would require a brutal oppression of natural tendencies. And for such brutal oppression to exist will itself require the formation of... an elite.

You see, there is, in fact, another way. It's just that it has always ended up being worse. But maybe next time it will be different.

[Max B Gold]

So long as there is a cop out for the wealthiest and most powerful, there won't be an adequate provision for everyone.

Correct. The very existence of "choice" is detrimental to the NHS. It isn't a choice the vast majority of the population can exercise.

It’s not a view I agree with. I think you think that the NHS would be better if the private sector didn’t exist. I don’t think that logic stacks up with any meaningful evidence.

You believe if Uber or taxis were not available then public transport would be better? I don’t think so.

The NHS would be better if private medicine did not exist because it leeches off of it whilst not bearing the true cost of using its staff and facilities. For one thing if doctors were not moonlighting and working second jobs they would be available to help reduce NHS waiting lists.

If public transport was free/affordable and reliable it would be better. Its a political choice. Take action to improve it or price people out on to the roads.

Taxis would still exist for the necessary short journeys but properly regulated as regards fares, drivers rights & remuneration etc

[Hoover Attack]

In a theoretical sense, they are absolutely correct. The element of choice, which can only be a afforded to the relatively privileged, will always undermine the basic provision to the masses.

But elite hierarchies emerge in all primate societies, so preventing an element of choice from ever emerging would require a brutal oppression of natural tendencies. And for such brutal oppression to exist will itself require the formation of... an elite.

You see, there is, in fact, another way. It's just that it has always ended up being worse. But maybe next time it will be different.

Does it really take brutal oppression to stop people being selfish c**ts? Is that the only way to move to this other way?

I may be in the minority on here but I like to think of myself as slightly better developed than a chimpanzee. You won't find me strutting around banging my chest, picking poo from my arse and throwing it at those I deem beneath me and stealing their bananas.

[DrWindy]

Correct. The very existence of "choice" is detrimental to the NHS. It isn't a choice the vast majority of the population can exercise.

It’s not a view I agree with. I think you think that the NHS would be better if the private sector didn’t exist. I don’t think that logic stacks up with any meaningful evidence.

You believe if Uber or taxis were not available then public transport would be better? I don’t think so.

The NHS would be better if private medicine did not exist because it leeches off of it whilst not bearing the true cost of using its staff and facilities. For one thing if doctors were not moonlighting and working second jobs they would be available to help reduce NHS waiting lists.

If public transport was free/affordable and reliable it would be better. Its a political choice. Take action to improve it or price people out on to the roads.

Taxis would still exist for the necessary short journeys but properly regulated as regards fares, drivers rights & remuneration etc

But the NHS doesn’t have a waiting list or shortages due to a lack of people. It has these things due to a lack of funding. You think the NHS doesn’t receive payments from the private sector for use of their facilities. You think doctors would work more hours on less money if they couldn’t operate privately? Of course not, they would eventually move to do something else where they have the freedom to earn a living how they wish. Your whole theory is too simplistic and just doesn’t stack up to any scrutiny.

[Dunners]

In a theoretical sense, they are absolutely correct. The element of choice, which can only be a afforded to the relatively privileged, will always undermine the basic provision to the masses.

But elite hierarchies emerge in all primate societies, so preventing an element of choice from ever emerging would require a brutal oppression of natural tendencies. And for such brutal oppression to exist will itself require the formation of... an elite.

You see, there is, in fact, another way. It's just that it has always ended up being worse. But maybe next time it will be different.

Does it really take brutal oppression to stop people being selfish c**ts? Is that the only way to move to this other way?

I may be in the minority on here but I like to think of myself as slightly better developed than a chimpanzee. You won't find me strutting around banging my chest, picking poo from my arse and throwing it at those I deem beneath me and stealing their bananas.

You need to get out and there and meet more of "the people".

I reckon you could certainly achieve improvements without brutality. But given enough time and opportunity, any advances will always be threatened with reversals. Best give up hope now, and get on side with the brutal oppressors.

[Dunners]

As an example, take this anecdote from a Labour MP, about meeting a member of the public who said he wasn’t voting for him because he'd heard that Labour was taxing condoms. This is what we're dealing with.

[Hoover Attack]

Never happened but heh.

[The Mindsweep]

As an example, take this anecdote from a Labour MP, about meeting a member of the public who said he wasn’t voting for him because he'd heard that Labour was taxing condoms. This is what we're dealing with.

Taking condoms is an issue the Religious Right in the US would love to be implemented