CEB wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:12 am
You’ve spent six months calling me a bigot before even understanding the debate you absolute cretin
Forgive me, but have you or have you not expressed bigoted opinions on this thread? Be as honest with yourself as you can when answering.
I've just been saying all along that society has to adapt to changing views on gender. That does not mean that it has to adopt compelled speech and daft ideologies. But nor should ridicule and shunning be accepted.
Working through generational change in societal mores needs tolerance, empathy and compromise. This debate is dominated on both sides by shrieking intolerance, mischaracterisation and refusal to listen.
I have zero bigoted opinions about trans people, and my entire discussion with you on this has been trying to pin you down on what opinion I hold that you believe to be bigoted.
Your second paragraph doesn’t even begin to understand what the trans debate is even about. You don’t even know what the “changing views on gender” are that society should adopt, nor do you even know what you mean by “gender”, nor do you know what trans activism means by “gender”.
You’re drowning in the shallow end of a debate you never bothered to understand, and you have absolutely nothing worthwhile to say.
While you evaded the points and called me a bigot repeatedly, in reality it turns out that I’m demonstrably correct on every claim I’ve made, and that policy and public opinion is swinging rapidly towards my position.
If all you have is accusing me of “shunning” (who have I “shunned”? Example please?) or “ridiculing” (yep, I will indeed ridicule an ideology that takes itself very seriously despite being ludicrous), then you’ve learned absolutely nothing.
In the two years you’ve been active on this thread, you’ve not made a single point. Then today, less than 24 hours after every claim I’ve made about treatment of dysphoric children has been vindicated, all you have is “both extremes are mean”
You’re a very unserious person
Last edited by CEB on Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:17 am
Why are the BBC having people on spouting nonsense about 'knew they were a woman because they liked pink'?
You are not going to believe this but people are, for now, allowed to think and say what they want on most subjects whether you agree with them or not.
What makes you say its nonsense? Are you, like CEB, a self appointed specialist in this field?
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:35 am
I have zero bigoted opinions about trans people, and my entire discussion with you on this has been trying to pin you down on what opinion I hold that you believe to be bigoted.
Your second paragraph doesn’t even begin to understand what the trans debate is even about. You don’t even know what the “changing views on gender” are that society should adopt, nor do you even know what you mean by “gender”, nor do you know what trans activism means by “gender”.
You’re drowning in the shallow end of a debate you never bothered to understand, and you have absolutely nothing worthwhile to say.
While you evaded the points and called me a bigot repeatedly, in reality it turns out that I’m demonstrably correct on every claim I’ve made, and that policy and public opinion is swinging rapidly towards my position.
If all you have is accusing me of “shunning” (who have I “shunned”? Example please?) or “ridiculing” (yep, I will indeed ridicule an ideology that takes itself very seriously despite being ludicrous, then you’ve learned absolutely nothing.
In the two years you’ve been active on this thread, you’ve not made a single point. Then today, less than 24 hours after every claim I’ve made about treatment of dysphoric children has been vindicated, all you have is “both extremes are mean”
You’re a very unserious person
An example: Would someone be labelled a bigot if they continually referred to a transwoman as "he" ? My understanding is that transwomen find this deeply offensive and bigoted. So yes the label fits.
I have made many points over two years, not all of them serious and the stylised Partridge/OFF ones were actually quite amusing.But to be fair I was pretty much just winding you up at that stage. Later I made some serious points but in your inimitable style you mischaracterised them, didn't listen or went back down your rabbit hole of ideology.
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:17 am
Why are the BBC having people on spouting nonsense about 'knew they were a woman because they liked pink'?
You are not going to believe this but people are, for now, allowed to think and say what they want on most subjects whether you agree with them or not.
What makes you say its nonsense? Are you, like CEB, a self appointed specialist in this field?
Because its sexist.
Or do you think that if someone likes pink, wigs and Hannah Montana then you must be female?
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:17 am
Why are the BBC having people on spouting nonsense about 'knew they were a woman because they liked pink'?
You are not going to believe this but people are, for now, allowed to think and say what they want on most subjects whether you agree with them or not.
What makes you say its nonsense? Are you, like CEB, a self appointed specialist in this field?
Because its sexist.
Or do you think that if someone likes pink, wigs and Hannah Montana then you must be female?
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:35 am
I have zero bigoted opinions about trans people, and my entire discussion with you on this has been trying to pin you down on what opinion I hold that you believe to be bigoted.
Your second paragraph doesn’t even begin to understand what the trans debate is even about. You don’t even know what the “changing views on gender” are that society should adopt, nor do you even know what you mean by “gender”, nor do you know what trans activism means by “gender”.
You’re drowning in the shallow end of a debate you never bothered to understand, and you have absolutely nothing worthwhile to say.
While you evaded the points and called me a bigot repeatedly, in reality it turns out that I’m demonstrably correct on every claim I’ve made, and that policy and public opinion is swinging rapidly towards my position.
If all you have is accusing me of “shunning” (who have I “shunned”? Example please?) or “ridiculing” (yep, I will indeed ridicule an ideology that takes itself very seriously despite being ludicrous, then you’ve learned absolutely nothing.
In the two years you’ve been active on this thread, you’ve not made a single point. Then today, less than 24 hours after every claim I’ve made about treatment of dysphoric children has been vindicated, all you have is “both extremes are mean”
You’re a very unserious person
An example: Would someone be labelled a bigot if they continually referred to a transwoman as "he" ? My understanding is that transwomen find this deeply offensive and bigoted. So yes the label fits.
I have made many points over two years, not all of them serious and the stylised Partridge/OFF ones were actually quite amusing.But to be fair I was pretty much just winding you up at that stage. Later I made some serious points but in your inimitable style you mischaracterised them, didn't listen or went back down your rabbit hole of ideology.
Tell me, who was it who said
“That does not mean that it has to adopt compelled speech”?
So we don’t have to have our speech compelled, but if we *dont* agree to use language that describes male people as female people, because we know that male people who say they’re female demand that society grants them rights as if they were female, we are bigots?
Dearie me, you really are about four years behind on the debate. You should have got involved rather than sneering
Gender critical feminists find it offensive and bigoted when male people equate patriarchal ideas of femininity with being female and then demand to be referred to as women.
Thats the crux of the linguistic aspect of the debate. You really didn’t ever bother to find out what the debate is, did you?
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:35 am
I have zero bigoted opinions about trans people, and my entire discussion with you on this has been trying to pin you down on what opinion I hold that you believe to be bigoted.
Your second paragraph doesn’t even begin to understand what the trans debate is even about. You don’t even know what the “changing views on gender” are that society should adopt, nor do you even know what you mean by “gender”, nor do you know what trans activism means by “gender”.
You’re drowning in the shallow end of a debate you never bothered to understand, and you have absolutely nothing worthwhile to say.
While you evaded the points and called me a bigot repeatedly, in reality it turns out that I’m demonstrably correct on every claim I’ve made, and that policy and public opinion is swinging rapidly towards my position.
If all you have is accusing me of “shunning” (who have I “shunned”? Example please?) or “ridiculing” (yep, I will indeed ridicule an ideology that takes itself very seriously despite being ludicrous, then you’ve learned absolutely nothing.
In the two years you’ve been active on this thread, you’ve not made a single point. Then today, less than 24 hours after every claim I’ve made about treatment of dysphoric children has been vindicated, all you have is “both extremes are mean”
You’re a very unserious person
An example: Would someone be labelled a bigot if they continually referred to a transwoman as "he" ? My understanding is that transwomen find this deeply offensive and bigoted. So yes the label fits.
I have made many points over two years, not all of them serious and the stylised Partridge/OFF ones were actually quite amusing.But to be fair I was pretty much just winding you up at that stage. Later I made some serious points but in your inimitable style you mischaracterised them, didn't listen or went back down your rabbit hole of ideology.
Tell me, who was it who said
“That does not mean that it has to adopt compelled speech”?
So we don’t have to have our speech compelled, but if we *dont* agree to use language that describes male people as female people, because we know that male people who say they’re female demand that society grants them rights as if they were female, we are bigots?
Dearie me, you really are about four years behind on the debate. You should have got involved rather than sneering
Craig Murray said the compelled speech bit not me. I just C&Pd it.
It's just polite and inoffensive to not call transwoman "he" as they request and you trying to justify bigotry by refusing is just obfuscation. Nobody is compelling you to avoid hurting someone's feelings and devaluing the very essence of who they are.
I'm may be sneering but only at the extremist ideology you have discovered and relentlessly promote.
You C&P’d it without attribution? And then distance yourself from the point you inadvertently made when it turned out that you accidentally advocated for something you describe as bigotry on the same page?
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:35 am
If all you have is accusing me of “shunning” (who have I “shunned”? Example please?) or “ridiculing” (yep, I will indeed ridicule an ideology that takes itself very seriously despite being ludicrous), then you’ve learned absolutely nothing.
Useful tip: when dealing with Max B Gold's posts - especially when it looks unlikely that he wrote it himself - select some text and right click "Search Google".
At least then you'll be able to see what thoughts are his own versus what he has stolen from somebody else. You can then see where he gets his information from and who you are really engaging with.
“ It's just polite and inoffensive to not call transwoman "he" as they request and you trying to justify bigotry by refusing is just obfuscation. Nobody is compelling you to avoid hurting someone's feelings and devaluing the very essence of who they are.”
Sleight of hand.
I didn’t claim to be “polite” about the trans debate; I consider the demand to refer to male people as if they were women to be impolite, sexist, and I agree with the women who refuse. My refusal to pretend that some men are women is not a value judgement; it’s a direct consequence of the fact that the “request” to do so is not as a courtesy, but as part of a political campaign for male people’s assertion that they are female to be treated as if true in policy and law.
“The very essence of who they are’
Nobody has the right to determine how they are perceived. Male people who would like to be female are not female; the “very essence of who they are” is “male people who want to be female”
Again, this has been done already.
What am I doing? I’m still waiting for you to give me an example of a trans person who disagrees with mainstream trans activism and yet takes issue with me around pronouns - did you find one yet?
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:35 am
If all you have is accusing me of “shunning” (who have I “shunned”? Example please?) or “ridiculing” (yep, I will indeed ridicule an ideology that takes itself very seriously despite being ludicrous), then you’ve learned absolutely nothing.
Useful tip: when dealing with Max B Gold's posts - especially when it looks unlikely that he wrote it himself - select some text and right click "Search Google".
At least then you'll be able to see what thoughts are his own versus what he has stolen from somebody else. You can then see where he gets his information from and who you are really engaging with.
Some people just love to tease and researchers think they have found out why. They believe people who goad others to incite an angry response may have an unconscious need for power linked to high testosterone levels.
Common causes of high testoterone levels in people with penises include: Tumor growth near hormonal glands, such as your adrenal gland or your testicles.
I'd get down to the doctors pronto for a quick wedding tackle checkup...
Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:07 pm
Its a complex issue which I have differing opinions on, depending on the element.
If it was my child I would do my absolutely very best to support them and help them into being themselves. But I'd also try to do the very hard job of convincing them to wait. Your body and your mind changes so much before and after puberty. The things I wanted at 10 were very different at 16, as were the things i wanted at 23 are different today, ten years later. It's hard to understand that when you are young though and ultimately it's very difficult for anyone if they cant be themselves, no matter what age. I think you need to balance listening, understanding and your responsibility as a guardian.
That's the whole point of puberty blockers, which despite all the worried wailing, is the only treatment available to under 16's. They aren't completely without risk but it is a reversible treatment. The majority of children accessing the gender identity service don't receive any hormone treatment at all and the focus is on therapy and social transitioning if that's what they want.
From my already admitted limited experience, this thing about kids saying they were born in the wrong body is a misconception of how people present. Just going from the one person I know, everything about her behaviour presents as female and she's been like that all her life. It's not a passing fad, it's who she is.
Looking forward to MM’s follow up about where the weight of evidence is on this, and what he now chooses to believe!
