Abortion at 34 weeks case...

[Max B Gold]

“ I'd say at 34 weeks it’s their baby *in* their body. Perhaps this is where we disagree.”

I don’t think that’s where we disagree - I don’t think it’s factually incorrect for you to see a foetus near full term as a baby in her body. Where we disagree is on what weight we place on that fact.
I think that that fact is a good reason that late term abortions shouldn’t be routine, should be very rare, to the point of being absolutely last resort.
I also think that women who are pregnant are very unlikely to get to that stage by just not addressing whether they want a baby until then.
Which is why it’s important to look at what actually happens in such cases. Again, Mindsweep’s post links to someone very knowledgeable on this, and it’s worth reading (and reading the material she links to)

I don't know what is the right thing to do, but were she to give birth to that baby at that point it would survive, you may be able to draw a line on it saying it's in her body it's her choice, but I'm struggling to see the difference between an abortion, and giving birth to it and killing it.

I'm no expert, but if the supports argued for above are in place at 34 weeks wouldn't they medically induce the woman and deliver the baby and then do everything to ensure it survived and then take it into care?

[Long slender neck]

against the womans will? Probably not.

[CEB]

“ I'd say at 34 weeks it’s their baby *in* their body. Perhaps this is where we disagree.”

I don’t think that’s where we disagree - I don’t think it’s factually incorrect for you to see a foetus near full term as a baby in her body. Where we disagree is on what weight we place on that fact.
I think that that fact is a good reason that late term abortions shouldn’t be routine, should be very rare, to the point of being absolutely last resort.
I also think that women who are pregnant are very unlikely to get to that stage by just not addressing whether they want a baby until then.
Which is why it’s important to look at what actually happens in such cases. Again, Mindsweep’s post links to someone very knowledgeable on this, and it’s worth reading (and reading the material she links to)

I don't know what is the right thing to do, but were she to give birth to that baby at that point it would survive, you may be able to draw a line on it saying it's in her body it's her choice, but I'm struggling to see the difference between an abortion, and giving birth to it and killing it.

I'm no expert, but if the supports argued for above are in place at 34 weeks wouldn't they medically induce the woman and deliver the baby and then do everything to ensure it survived and then take it into care?

I think this is where the distinction between “decriminalisation”, “legalisation”, and “enshrined right to abortion at any stage” become important.

Considering that it’s inherent to being near term and wanting an abortion that for most of the pregnancy the woman has been to some degree intending to have the baby, then it seems likely that an intervention providing non-judgmental support and guidance would often result in the best outcome - the woman reconciling with her pregnancy and giving birth, and being happy she did.

I guess the next stage would be explaining/informing to the woman that the stage she’s at would mean the baby would likely survive if born now, and giving her enough information to understand that going through childbirth would still happen at this stage even if she ended the pregnancy, and would potentially be more traumatic than letting the pregnancy reach term and giving birth to a healthy baby. The idea of the baby being taken into care could well be introduced as a not ideal outcome but a better outcome than the situation of a woman having a traumatic late term abortion/still birth.

My guess is that such interventions, in a context where women aren’t scared to seek them in case it puts them on the radar for criminality if they decide to abort, would in many cases result in the mother going ahead with the pregnancy; if so, that would show that decriminalisation produces more examples of better outcomes.

The distinction between “illegal” “legal”, “decriminalised” and “right to have an abortion” then comes into play.

With *the right to have an abortion at any time*, then someone would have to be found to carry out the procedure; I don’t think anyone should be forced/expected to carry out that procedure and I suspect not many practitioners would be up for doing it.

With it being illegal, the pregnant woman who is so desperate to have the procedure would be forced into secrecy, would be at risk of serious injury, trauma, and death, as well as the procedure potentially not working, and then the potential for prison.

With it being “legal” she could seek help legitimately with no guarantee of getting it, and could seek help after without fear of prison.

With decriminalisation of late term abortion (and abortions at any stage without GP referral), I think that’s pragmatically the option likely to result in the best outcomes: there can be support networks available and open to women that provide her with options to help her with the pregnancy, clear guidance as to what they can’t officially help with, and then if the woman is so desperate to not have the pregnancy that she takes action, she can be supported medically and psychologically without fear of prison.

I think that works, with the only real objection I can envisage being those who *want* criminal sanctions for women who seek abortion.

[Long slender neck]

Any evidence for the number of women who are "scared to seek support in case it puts them on the radar for criminality if they decide to abort" ? Curious about the number affected.

If there's no health professional who would abort a healthy baby at that stage then I hate to think how they'd get an abortion. Any figures for how many people do this? Should we decriminalise something that no health professional would do?

[CEB]

Tell me you haven’t read any of the links posted on this thread without telling me.

“I’d hate to think how they’d get an abortion”

Tell me you don’t even know anything about *this* case in particular, nor about what actually happens when women seek illegal abortions generally, without telling me.

“Should we decriminalise something that no healthcare practitioners would do”

Yes, for reasons that have been covered on this thread extensively.


Caca, you have to do some of your own thinking

[Long slender neck]

You dont know then? Ok.

[CEB]

Caca in bad faith attempt to falsely extend a discussion that’s already been done shock.

[Long slender neck]

CEB in bad faith attempt to falsely declare a discussion as 'done' just because he says it is.

[CEB]

Keep going by all means - I’ve laid out my view and expanded on matters relevant to my view. I don’t care about whether you’re convinced or not x

[Long slender neck]

CEB defeated!

[tuffers#1]

Keep going by all means - I’ve laid out my view and expanded on matters relevant to my view. I don’t care about whether you’re convinced or not x

Are you intending to campaign for
Law change on abortion ,
Better spending time on something
worthwhile than on here ?

P.S I dont mean whole sale change I mean exampes like you have made .

[Dunners]

She's won her appeal and will walk free.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

She's won her appeal and will walk free.

Probably the right outcome. Still found guilty but allowed to have her time suspended to parent her other kids

[bobo66]

I fail to see why killing an unborn baby is somehow different to killing one that's been born.

[CEB]

That’s because you’re not very clever

[bobo66]

Well you obviously are as shown by your response.

[CEB]

Thanks for noticing

[Currywurst and Chips]

Abortion to be decriminalised entirely, presumably up to birth then

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a4d9 ... d6408f9d00

[Yanzi Gravy]

Life is precious and should be banned except in extreme cases and circumstances.

[CEB]

You want to ban life?

[Dunners]

Makes sense when you think about it.

[Proposition Joe]

Would solve the cost of living crisis at a stroke.

[Yanzi Gravy]

I had one when I was a carefree fool young and inexperienced well I mean the girl I was going out with did and I had no say in the matter , her mother took control and I did not come into the decision making process. The young lady regretted it as I feared and it has been on my mind for many many years . So unnecessary and reckless. So many situations like this, causing lifetime of suffering. Life is so precious especially when so many people cannot produce for various reasons.