The trans debate

[CEB]

This is a recording of a training session delivered to adults working with children by Mermaids

[CEB]

The first couple of minutes are not what I’m referring to by the way - the whole thing is utter madness

[CEB]

This, which I’ve posted before, forms part of the training in the recording - remember, it’s being delivered to adults to explain gender identity to those adults, who work with children



So, organisations that say “whether you’re a boy or girl depends on how you feel about yourself” use stuff like this to represent a spectrum of masculinity to femininity - but, as you can see, they openly link masculinity to femininity to “gender identity”

If you listen to the recording, the trainer does not say “this is a bad thing” - it’s used as if it’s a useful way of placing yourself on a gender spectrum.

[Proposition Joe]

Sorry, missed the bit about the paraphrasing. Thanks for the additional stuff.

[CEB]

Link didn’t work - here it is

[Proposition Joe]

I feel like that has to be a spoof but by this stage of the discussion I know it isn't. Kinell.

[CEB]

Sorry, missed the bit about the paraphrasing. Thanks for the additional stuff.

No worries. The point overall that I was getting at there is that when schools teach about gender identity, using guidance from trans activist charities, they are not saying something like

“Some boys feel so unhappy with being male that they can only feel happy if they’re helped to be girls”, because that would pathologise being trans, and that’s not - in this way - what trans activism wants.

So the entire concept of what it is to be a boy or girl is reframed in a way to make it valid to believe that some male children are actually girls, and some female children
are actually boys (and that once you’ve established which ones they are, their sex is then taboo. And, conversely, despite being a boy or girl having nothing to do with the body in this model, the clock is then ticking before puberty happens and the child is “harmed” by “the wrong puberty”)

[CEB]

Meanwhile, this is the full text of the book
“My Body is Me!!!” by Rachel Rooney. It’s fair to say that writing this book has ruined her life, because of the response to it from trans activists.

[Hoover Attack]

It’s not like Henderson is a terf, he’s a bell end, he’s a wing nut, he throws onion rings at sailors

[Rich Tea Wellin]

When you say “challenge the narrative” it’s worth thinking what you mean by that; presumably the narrative that the earth is round is a narrative that shouldn’t be challenged by presenting an alternative view that it’s flat, as if that’s fact?
But what you’re getting at I agree with - you’re saying schools should teach how to think, not what to think, right?

Anyway -
In PHSE lessons, according to the guidance from Stonewall, mermaids etc, their concept of gender identity is taught as fact, yes: it’s not taught as just one of a range of legitimate opinions about what it is to a be a boy or girl; inclusion policies in schools around this actually (as I’ll show later) treat the other views on this as bigotry.


So, just to check, if I’ve understood you correctly, you find the idea that that theory/belief of gender is being taught in schools to be a bit iffy, on the basis that you reckon that you’re better placed than the school to teach your kids what these terms mean?
(Again, I’m genuinely not being facetious, I’m working through a point that’s about how the policies work - or don’t work)

Well, obviously I’d find it weird if they were teaching him the world is flat but would support debate around why we think that and how it’s a very good example of how something that was widely accepted once upon a time was inaccurate.

Not quite right. I don’t necessarily think I’d be better placed than the schools. I don’t know lots about it but I feel that I’d feel more comfortable starting that conversation because a) I know my kid best and when it would be appropriate to have that conversation b) I’d talk to them about it in a way that I feel would breed curiosity and potentially make him feel supported if he had questions in a way I’m not sure a school would.

[CEB]

What do you mean by “that conversation”? Genuine question.

What I mean is, presumably, you’ve quite naturally and without thinking about it told your child that he’s a boy, and been able to explain what that means without recourse to ideas about identity, aside from perhaps saying that being a boy doesn’t mean he can’t like things that are thought of as being for girls, and maybe told him that some silly people think that boys can’t play with dolls, but that that’s wrong - boys can play with whatever toys they like

[Rich Tea Wellin]

That trans people exist, acceptance that people all feel differently and that as parents, we’d be available to talk if he felt that way. as a wider conversation, as you put it, that being a boy doesn’t mean football and not wearing pink.

[CEB]

What do you mean by “trans people” in this context, and why do you think a child under ten needs to know about trans people, and what do you think it is that they need to know about trans people?

What I mean is, you say to your child “trans people exist” a your child says “what is a trans person?” - what is your answer?

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Where did I mention (or you mention) the age of the child. As I said, the reason I’d like to start that conversation is because I’d know when the appropriate age to raise it is. To play along, under ten I think they’d need to know the bare minimum I.e. a boy who feels more like a girl and skirting around any deeper follow ups.

[CEB]

So that you know I’m not being facetious, I’ll be upfront about what I would say.

If we were in a context where there wasn’t the form of trans activism that I take issue with, I would say
“There are some people who realise that they are really unhappy with their body - there are lots of ways people can be unhappy with their body, and some people are very unhappy at being a man or woman, and after getting lots of help to try to accept their body as it is, they make the big decision to change their body to be as much like the opposite sex as possible, and for some people, this makes them happier. Those people sometimes get bullied because of that decision, and that is not fair”

In the current context, I would have to add “there are some people who believe that whether you’re a boy or girl is to do with how you feel or what interests or personality you have. Those people are silly. They think that there are “boys things” and “girls things”, and that if boys show an interest in lots of girls things, that boy is a girl. That’s not true, it’s perfectly fine to like things that girls like, whether that’s colours, clothes, games, toys, having friends who are girls. That stuff is just your personality, and being a boy says nothing about your personality.”


Are we roughly on the same page there, or is there anything there you disagree with?

[CEB]

Where did I mention (or you mention) the age of the child. As I said, the reason I’d like to start that conversation is because I’d know when the appropriate age to raise it is. To play along, under ten I think they’d need to know the bare minimum I.e. a boy who feels more like a girl and skirting around any deeper follow ups.

Ah. Here we hit the first problem.

Can you summarise what it is for a boy to “feel like a girl”?

[Rich Tea Wellin]

So that you know I’m not being facetious, I’ll be upfront about what I would say.

If we were in a context where there wasn’t the form of trans activism that I take issue with, I would say
“There are some people who realise that they are really unhappy with their body - there are lots of ways people can be unhappy with their body, and some people are very unhappy at being a man or woman, and after getting lots of help to try to accept their body as it is, they make the big decision to change their body to be as much like the opposite sex as possible, and for some people, this makes them happier. Those people sometimes get bullied because of that decision, and that is not fair”

In the current context, I would have to add “there are some people who believe that whether you’re a boy or girl is to do with how you feel or what interests or personality you have. Those people are silly. They think that there are “boys things” and “girls things”, and that if boys show an interest in lots of girls things, that boy is a girl. That’s not true, it’s perfectly fine to like things that girls like, whether that’s colours, clothes, games, toys, having friends who are girls. That stuff is just your personality, and being a boy says nothing about your personality.”


Are we roughly on the same page there, or is there anything there you disagree with?

I’d go along with that

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Where did I mention (or you mention) the age of the child. As I said, the reason I’d like to start that conversation is because I’d know when the appropriate age to raise it is. To play along, under ten I think they’d need to know the bare minimum I.e. a boy who feels more like a girl and skirting around any deeper follow ups.

Ah. Here we hit the first problem.

Can you summarise what it is for a boy to “feel like a girl”?

No, but why do I need to?

I see what you are getting at, and as above, I agree with you that gender stereotypes are a big part of the problem. But the reality is that some people DO feel like a girl, regardless of definition. You may well say they have mental issues, or are confusing stereotypes with who they are, but regardless. They exist. Whilst I wouldn’t want to group these two topics together, if I was explaining why some people have mental problems I wouldn’t go into the ins and outs of, for example, childhood trauma. Not at 10.

[CEB]

Why do you need to?

That’s the crucial question. The reason you need to is that “feeling like a girl” describes something entirely different depending on what the word “girl” describes.

It’s interesting that at the first difficult question you’ve started extrapolating some stuff I haven’t said, but if you can, I’d like to stay on topic. It’s interesting that you mentioned confusing.

The fact is, we are talking about words, categories, and what is in those categories.

If children are taught - universally - that “being a boy or a girl is a neutral fact about your body”, and interests, colours, hair length, clothes, personalities are not “gendered”, then a boy saying “I am a girl” could, in that context, only relate to extreme distress about their sexed body, because the category only refers to sex. Correct?

[CEB]

Also - I promise you you’re not aware of where I’m going with it. Please bear with me. I’m not preparing a gotcha, I’m trying to illustrate to you where your own position on this, if you think your thoughts through, is diametrically opposed to the activism that you’re vaguely equivocal about

[CEB]

Genuinely wild stuff in this tweet thread



It demonstrates perfectly everything I’ve said in this thread. Here it is being scrutinised in court

[Dunners]

A victory against the moonbat f*ckwit fascists. And, once again, another opportunity seized by the right wingers to capitalise on the vacuum and deafening silence from the liberal left.

[CEB]

Wondering if RTW is willing to continue the discussion? Looked a bit like he threw his hands up and was like “I don’t get it but I see where you’re going and I don’t like it”, and I genuinely do not understand why so few people will think a thought through to the end on this.

[Long slender neck]

What if someone had "religious critical beliefs" and expressed those in the workplace? I reckon religion and trans stuff have a lot in common, but i cant really be bothered to flesh this brain fart out.

[CEB]

What if someone had "religious critical beliefs" and expressed those in the workplace? I reckon religion and trans stuff have a lot in common, but i cant really be bothered to flesh this brain fart out.

we live in a secular society - workplaces can and do manage (on the whole) to balance competing rights, and to plan accordingly, and to have policies that in most circumstances mean people can tick along. Where there are issues, there’s a framework to work within.


The difference with trans stuff is that - as this thread shows - very very few people actually know what trans activism believe, and many, many progressive organisations have happily and enthusiastically delegated policy making to organisations like Stonewall, who have been writing policies based on what they’d like the law to be, rather than what the law is.
And that why we’re currently seeing lots of gender critical people winning court cases for harassment, constructive dismissal etc