Labour Watch

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Good to see Labour fallowing the Tories in eating themselves. Glad they at least have some MPs that have morals and a conscious.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ire-israel

[Proposition Joe]

Phillips isn't one of them.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Phillips isn't one of them.

Any more info?

[Proposition Joe]

Nah, just that she's never done anything that wasn't borne out of pure self interest.

[Dunners]

This is ridiculous.

Firstly, all the shadow front bench MPs resigning are just doing so to prevent Starmer having to sack them. Once some time has passed they can then be appointed again.

Secondly, an opposition party voting on whether to call for a ceasefire is just pointless gesturing and cynical constituency politics. It has absolutely nothing to do with morals.

As I said on the Israel thread:

Out of the following two options, which one is most likely and realistic to achieve a ceasefire:

1. Demanding a ceasefire immediately from the current state of war.

Or

2. Negotiating a "pause" in hostilities to allow humanitarian aid. With these becoming more frequent and prolonged and normalised.

Anyone who genuinely believes in the first option... Well, enjoy your day out on Saturday.

Anyone who believes it is the second option, no matter how much they may wish it was the first... Well, that's pretty much the plan. And is what US Sec. Blinken is hinting at and is supported by most governments (and Labour).

Anyone seriously agitating for a Labour MP to publicly declare for the first option is either deluded or disingenuous in their true intentions and motivations.

[Dunners]

Also, the electorate are comfortable with the Labour position so far. Starmer would be mad to change tact right now and take on any unnecessary risk just to appease a fringe group.

[Long slender neck]

Secondly, an opposition party voting on whether to call for a ceasefire is just pointless gesturing and cynical constituency politics. It has absolutely nothing to do with morals.

Exactly, having a vote on something you have no control over is totally pointless.

[Friend or faux]

I think you will also find that a large proportion of Labour " rebels ", have constituencies where there is a sizeable Muslim electorate. Anyone one trying make a big story out of this issue is using it as " smoke & mirrors " to deflect from the far wider Tory divisions on just about any topic.

[Proposition Joe]

Odd how a significant % of people saying Starmer supporting a ceasefire motion would have been pointless because LOTO doesn't have any power over it were also slating Corbyn for not stopping Brexit, which as LOTO he didn't have any power over. One could almost say there was a lack of consistency in people's assessment of the reach and remit of the role.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Secondly, an opposition party voting on whether to call for a ceasefire is just pointless gesturing and cynical constituency politics. It has absolutely nothing to do with morals.

Exactly, having a vote on something you have no control over is totally pointless.

I find it weird you take this view with effective every show of support like votes or protests. Effectively, a proven way of getting voices heard that has time and again created change.

[Admin]

This is ridiculous.

Firstly, all the shadow front bench MPs resigning are just doing so to prevent Starmer having to sack them. Once some time has passed they can then be appointed again.

Secondly, an opposition party voting on whether to call for a ceasefire is just pointless gesturing and cynical constituency politics. It has absolutely nothing to do with morals.

As I said on the Israel thread:

Out of the following two options, which one is most likely and realistic to achieve a ceasefire:

1. Demanding a ceasefire immediately from the current state of war.

Or

2. Negotiating a "pause" in hostilities to allow humanitarian aid. With these becoming more frequent and prolonged and normalised.

Anyone who genuinely believes in the first option... Well, enjoy your day out on Saturday.

Anyone who believes it is the second option, no matter how much they may wish it was the first... Well, that's pretty much the plan. And is what US Sec. Blinken is hinting at and is supported by most governments (and Labour).

Anyone seriously agitating for a Labour MP to publicly declare for the first option is either deluded or disingenuous in their true intentions and motivations.

Agree on the cynical constituency politics being the driving factor behind these resignations.

However (and silly as this sounds) aren't MP's meant to represent their constituents interests and concerns? Therefore these MP's who voted for the ceasefire, (albeit driven by self-preservation), have carried out their function on behalf of their constituents particularly as polling shows a majority of us unwashed plebs being in favour of a ceasefire?

Jess Phillips has never done anything that wasn't in her own interest.

[Proposition Joe]

I liked Helen Hayes' statement where she said she'd continue to represent her constituents' wishes by calling a ceasefire but then confirmed she'd abstained.

[Admin]

I liked Helen Hayes' statement where she said she'd continue to represent her constituents' wishes by calling a ceasefire but then confirmed she'd abstained.

She'll go far.

[Long slender neck]

Secondly, an opposition party voting on whether to call for a ceasefire is just pointless gesturing and cynical constituency politics. It has absolutely nothing to do with morals.

Exactly, having a vote on something you have no control over is totally pointless.

I find it weird you take this view with effective every show of support like votes or protests. Effectively, a proven way of getting voices heard that has time and again created change.

I respect protests with realistic aims. 'Just stop oil' or 'ceasefire now' obviously havent been. To me they seem dumb, naive and petulant with little thought as to the consequences of what would happen if their demands were actually met or if they're even achiveable.

This infighting just damages Labour slightly, and for what?

[Mistadobalina]

Odd how a significant % of people saying Starmer supporting a ceasefire motion would have been pointless because LOTO doesn't have any power over it were also slating Corbyn for not stopping Brexit, which as LOTO he didn't have any power over. One could almost say there was a lack of consistency in people's assessment of the reach and remit of the role.

Are you forgetting that Corbyn was loto at a time where Tory divisions meant we had effectively a hung parliament? He actually did stop May's Brexit 3 times.

I'm not sure there's a real equivalence here.

[Proposition Joe]

Odd how a significant % of people saying Starmer supporting a ceasefire motion would have been pointless because LOTO doesn't have any power over it were also slating Corbyn for not stopping Brexit, which as LOTO he didn't have any power over. One could almost say there was a lack of consistency in people's assessment of the reach and remit of the role.

Are you forgetting that Corbyn was loto at a time where Tory divisions meant we had effectively a hung parliament? He actually did stop May's Brexit 3 times.

I'm not sure there's a real equivalence here.

Hang on, Brexit didn't happen?

[Daily Express bot]

Odd how a significant % of people saying Starmer supporting a ceasefire motion would have been pointless because LOTO doesn't have any power over it were also slating Corbyn for not stopping Brexit, which as LOTO he didn't have any power over. One could almost say there was a lack of consistency in people's assessment of the reach and remit of the role.

Are you forgetting that Corbyn was loto at a time where Tory divisions meant we had effectively a hung parliament? He actually did stop May's Brexit 3 times.

I'm not sure there's a real equivalence here.

May’s Brexit proposals were more or less what Labour are asking for now and could have voted for a better deal. She was bending over backwards to get a deal but same old Labour rather played politics than think what was best for the country then got us where we are now as the result of 2019. Labour now saying want to renegotiate the deal when could have had it ages ago. May was a Remainer , she was clever ceding ground but Labour were too obstinate to smell the coffee.

[Friend or faux]

LSN:- I respect protests with realistic aims. 'Just stop oil' or 'ceasefire now' obviously havent been. To me they seem dumb, naive and petulant with little thought as to the consequences of what would happen if their demands were actually met or if they're even achiveable.

This infighting just damages Labour slightly, and for what?

ME:- This is bang on right!

[Admin]

Odd how a significant % of people saying Starmer supporting a ceasefire motion would have been pointless because LOTO doesn't have any power over it were also slating Corbyn for not stopping Brexit, which as LOTO he didn't have any power over. One could almost say there was a lack of consistency in people's assessment of the reach and remit of the role.

Are you forgetting that Corbyn was loto at a time where Tory divisions meant we had effectively a hung parliament? He actually did stop May's Brexit 3 times.

I'm not sure there's a real equivalence here.

Didn't Starmer and all the other #FBPE / 2nd Referendum lot have a big part in that as well? I thought Corbyn was a mere passenger when it came to Labour's position on Brexit. They're eventual policy going into the 19 election was from memory pushed hard by the likes of Starmer et al.

[ComeOnYouOs]

Odd how a significant % of people saying Starmer supporting a ceasefire motion would have been pointless because LOTO doesn't have any power over it were also slating Corbyn for not stopping Brexit, which as LOTO he didn't have any power over. One could almost say there was a lack of consistency in people's assessment of the reach and remit of the role.

Are you forgetting that Corbyn was loto at a time where Tory divisions meant we had effectively a hung parliament? He actually did stop May's Brexit 3 times.

I'm not sure there's a real equivalence here.

May’s Brexit proposals were more or less what Labour are asking for now and could have voted for a better deal. She was bending over backwards to get a deal but same old Labour rather played politics than think what was best for the country then got us where we are now as the result of 2019. Labour now saying want to renegotiate the deal when could have had it ages ago. May was a Remainer , she was clever ceding ground but Labour were too obstinate to smell the coffee.

What utter nonsense. Mays Brexit deal failed because of the rabid right wing of the Tory party. Rees-Mogg and his gang in the so called ERG

[CEB]

Odd how a significant % of people saying Starmer supporting a ceasefire motion would have been pointless because LOTO doesn't have any power over it were also slating Corbyn for not stopping Brexit, which as LOTO he didn't have any power over. One could almost say there was a lack of consistency in people's assessment of the reach and remit of the role.

Are you forgetting that Corbyn was loto at a time where Tory divisions meant we had effectively a hung parliament? He actually did stop May's Brexit 3 times.

I'm not sure there's a real equivalence here.

Hang on, Brexit didn't happen?

Come on, you’re better than that. The point is that in one instance, the opposition party was better placed to actually influence government (and therefore actual outcomes) than in the other instance.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

What’s the negative impact on Labour calling for a ceasefire? Feel like almost everyone agrees…voters think he’s weak in warmongering?

[CEB]

The argument is that calling for a ceasefire is essentially calling for one side to ceasefire, because Hamas are not about to agree to anything.

Again, see Dunners point. I think if you look at Starmer’s position with that in mind, it’s that Starmer is interested in maintaining a position that is pragmatic and workable *if* it was held while in government, and is to some extent informed by wanting to put distance between Labour now and the idea that Labour previously were taking up position that could be seen as being possible through the luxury of never having to actually implement them

[Dunners]

Hmmm.

[Dunners]

*opens packet of biscuits