What we were shown is an explosion that Hamas and their supporters are claiming was an Israeli airstrip. It has not yet been verified if it was a bomb, an airstrike, or from where it originated. We have also been shown what the IDF are claiming to be Hamas roadblocks to prevent civilians from fleeing.
Not meaning to detract from the general point you are making (which I agree with), but we need to be very skeptical of any information being reported from the region. The level of misinformation is off the scale. And both sides are skilled at it. Don't be a useful idiot.
Useful idiot? Right.
So you seem to believe that it wasn't an Israeli airstrike?
If I'm wrong then I'll apologise unreservedly & you of course will no doubt do the same if you're wrong .
As I've said, terrible war crimes committed by Hamas. Israel respond by committing war crimes of their own by depriving Palestinians of food, water, energy & by launching attacks on civilians. You comfortable with thar?
And then of course we have the situation of a deeply unpopular head of state facing legal proceedings for corruption who also bears responsibility for the huge intelligence failure which meant Hamas could carry out its attack. This is his chance of redemption & have no doubt he'll do whatever it takes to achieve that.
We have seen incredibly hawkish language & there appears to be an intention to obliterate Gaza.
I haven't even mentioned the general living conditions of Palestinians, land grab, Israel ignoring UN Resolutions, a tragedy many decades in length.
Don't be so naive.
The phrase Useful Idiot is a specific term that does not mean I'm calling you an idiot. If you're unsure then it's worth looking up. It's something we are all at risk of being from time to time.
I did not claim it was not an Israeli airstrike. My point is that we simply don't know, and are being bombarded with misinformation. From Iran, the IDF, Hamas, the Israeli government, the Qataris, as well as many others.
If it turns out to be anything other than an Israeli airstrike, then there's no need for you to apologise. It's easy to fall into the trap. Nor is there any need me for to apologise if it is an Israeli airstrike, because I'm not claiming otherwise.
And no, I'm not comfortable with any of this. But hysteria isn't going to help anyone.
Thanks for clarifying Dunners. Am trying to avoid a rant & may or may not have succeeded.
The whole situation is deeply upsetting & what is particularly upsetting is the inability of most political leaders to condemn war crimes committed by both sides.
It is becoming slightly farcical when a renowned human rights lawyer & the likely next PM won't acknowledge that the withholding of food, water, fuel etc is a breach of international law & a war crime.
At the moment our leaders are effectively supporting collective punishment of the Palestinian people.
Useful idiot? Right.
So you seem to believe that it wasn't an Israeli airstrike?
If I'm wrong then I'll apologise unreservedly & you of course will no doubt do the same if you're wrong .
As I've said, terrible war crimes committed by Hamas. Israel respond by committing war crimes of their own by depriving Palestinians of food, water, energy & by launching attacks on civilians. You comfortable with thar?
And then of course we have the situation of a deeply unpopular head of state facing legal proceedings for corruption who also bears responsibility for the huge intelligence failure which meant Hamas could carry out its attack. This is his chance of redemption & have no doubt he'll do whatever it takes to achieve that.
We have seen incredibly hawkish language & there appears to be an intention to obliterate Gaza.
I haven't even mentioned the general living conditions of Palestinians, land grab, Israel ignoring UN Resolutions, a tragedy many decades in length.
Don't be so naive.
The phrase Useful Idiot is a specific term that does not mean I'm calling you an idiot. If you're unsure then it's worth looking up. It's something we are all at risk of being from time to time.
I did not claim it was not an Israeli airstrike. My point is that we simply don't know, and are being bombarded with misinformation. From Iran, the IDF, Hamas, the Israeli government, the Qataris, as well as many others.
If it turns out to be anything other than an Israeli airstrike, then there's no need for you to apologise. It's easy to fall into the trap. Nor is there any need me for to apologise if it is an Israeli airstrike, because I'm not claiming otherwise.
And no, I'm not comfortable with any of this. But hysteria isn't going to help anyone.
Thanks for clarifying Dunners. Am trying to avoid a rant & may or may not have succeeded.
The whole situation is deeply upsetting & what is particularly upsetting is the inability of most political leaders to condemn war crimes committed by both sides.
It is becoming slightly farcical when a renowned human rights lawyer & the likely next PM won't acknowledge that the withholding of food, water, fuel etc is a breach of international law & a war crime.
At the moment our leaders are effectively supporting collective punishment of the Palestinian people.
Are you legally qualified in Human Rights or yet another Barrack Room Lawyer?
To Loin Cloth Lenny, thanks for raising this. I actually am a lawyer.
Feel free to argue against the principles of international law & what constitutes a war crime.
Perhaps you can clarify but you seem unwilling to condemn war crimes committed by Israel. Apologies if I'm wrong about this.
Those who selectively condemn human rights abuses have lost their humanity
It's now confirmed that the US is sending a second carrier strike force to the region. That's totally overkill for just an Israel v Hezbollah conflict, which means they're taking the threat of Iranian strike seriously.
VeganO wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:15 pm
To Loin Cloth Lenny, thanks for raising this. I actually am a lawyer.
Feel free to argue against the principles of international law & what constitutes a war crime.
Perhaps you can clarify but you seem unwilling to condemn war crimes committed by Israel. Apologies if I'm wrong about this.
Those who selectively condemn human rights abuses have lost their humanity
I have a viewpoint on this subject which is well aired in the thread. If it is established that there are breaches of Human Rights and War Crimes by anyone concerned, I’m certain these will be fully investigated and dealt with . People are readily willing to assess matters from the comfort of their armchair or up the pub which is often pure bluster. I do not know what is happening there save from what I have been told by family and friends who live there and here. Who receive dire news throughout the days since the terrorists attacked the Sovereign State of Israel. I do not know any Palestinians. I read the news and the media take on things from different perspectives.
People were putting the War Crime tag on Blair at the time of the Gulf War and since. Blair is now advising Starmer in the run up to the election. Starmer has little credibility in my view as he changes his tune like the wind direction like he has with Corbyn, Brexit and Energy.
Re: the Israeli airstrike story. This is a usually reliable account, sometimes relied upon by BBC Verify, potentially debunking the story. But yet many people will already have consumed the false narrative that Israel bombed fleeing civilians.
Israel war crimes! What were the Israelis doing last weekend, mostly enjoying themselves that I can see, with families and friends. Certainly not killing people. sh*t, even their military seem to have been off duty. So what changed, you don't really need me to explain. They are responding to the terrorism from Hamas and those supporting them from a distance. Malcolm Rifkin said it clearly this morning, the welfare of Palestinians is in their own hands ie Hamas. Do they all support Hamas, I doubt it but who is going to risk calling out these murderous bastards. Even the guy from the West Bank criticised Israel but not once did he blame Hamas.
War is evil. evil costs lives, England has done its own share of evilness.
So is there a solution? If I was an informed Palestinians I would, hey, get rid of the war mongers, accept Israel and TAKE THE $MILLIONS that will no doubt be on offer. I don't have to like Israel but I don't have to hate them either.
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:01 pm
Re: the Israeli airstrike story. This is a usually reliable account, sometimes relied upon by BBC Verify, potentially debunking the story. But yet many people will already have consumed the false narrative that Israel bombed fleeing civilians.
You're saying that ITV News has been conned & led that day's coverage with a false account?
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:01 pm
Re: the Israeli airstrike story. This is a usually reliable account, sometimes relied upon by BBC Verify, potentially debunking the story. But yet many people will already have consumed the false narrative that Israel bombed fleeing civilians.
You're saying that ITV News has been conned & led that day's coverage with a false account?
I don't know, as I never saw the ITV report. Did they categorically state that it was confirmed that Israel had bombed fleeing civilians? Or did they say something along the lines of "reports of Israeli rockets striking civilians"?
If it's the latter, then what they have done is reported unverified rumour. It's unprofessional but increasingly common. If it's the former, then they need to share their source urgently with reputable news agencies such as AP and Reuters.
Also, if you read the thread I linked to, you'll see that it doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of an Israeli Air strike. But it does suggest other more likely explanations based upon the evidence.
Last edited by Dunners on Sun Oct 15, 2023 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Harlow wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:29 pm
Israel war crimes! What were the Israelis doing last weekend, mostly enjoying themselves that I can see, with families and friends. Certainly not killing people. sh*t, even their military seem to have been off duty. So what changed, you don't really need me to explain. They are responding to the terrorism from Hamas and those supporting them from a distance. Malcolm Rifkin said it clearly this morning, the welfare of Palestinians is in their own hands ie Hamas. Do they all support Hamas, I doubt it but who is going to risk calling out these murderous bastards. Even the guy from the West Bank criticised Israel but not once did he blame Hamas.
War is evil. evil costs lives, England has done its own share of evilness.
So is there a solution? If I was an informed Palestinians I would, hey, get rid of the war mongers, accept Israel and TAKE THE $MILLIONS that will no doubt be on offer. I don't have to like Israel but I don't have to hate them either.
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:23 pm
It's now confirmed that the US is sending a second carrier strike force to the region. That's totally overkill for just an Israel v Hezbollah conflict, which means they're taking the threat of Iranian strike seriously.
Not necessarily.
It may be to cover the second front if Hezbollah attack. Don't forget that they have defeated the IDF before and are a formidable proposition.
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:23 pm
It's now confirmed that the US is sending a second carrier strike force to the region. That's totally overkill for just an Israel v Hezbollah conflict, which means they're taking the threat of Iranian strike seriously.
Not necessarily.
It may be to cover the second front if Hezbollah attack. Don't forget that they have defeated the IDF before and are a formidable proposition.
Agree that Hezbollah are far more formidable than Hamas. But the first carrier strike force is there for Hezbollah and is more than enough for them.
Harlow wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:29 pm
Israel war crimes! What were the Israelis doing last weekend, mostly enjoying themselves that I can see, with families and friends. Certainly not killing people. sh*t, even their military seem to have been off duty. So what changed, you don't really need me to explain. They are responding to the terrorism from Hamas and those supporting them from a distance. Malcolm Rifkin said it clearly this morning, the welfare of Palestinians is in their own hands ie Hamas. Do they all support Hamas, I doubt it but who is going to risk calling out these murderous bastards. Even the guy from the West Bank criticised Israel but not once did he blame Hamas.
War is evil. evil costs lives, England has done its own share of evilness.
So is there a solution? If I was an informed Palestinians I would, hey, get rid of the war mongers, accept Israel and TAKE THE $MILLIONS that will no doubt be on offer. I don't have to like Israel but I don't have to hate them either.
Malcolm Rifkind? F*cking LOL.
Yes sad, we could have had Emily Thornberry under Corbyn or John Healy (who he?) under Starmer as Defence Secretary, would be hilarious if not such a serious prospect!
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 3:38 pm
Also, the border between Israel and Lebanon is getting a bit lively.
Which is where Hezbollah are? At times like this I often wonder whatever happened to Wally Jumblatt and his Druze Militia.
(Wally only recently retired)
Yep. Also now confirmed that Iran FM has met with a Hamas leader in Qatar. Egyptian premier has openly acted dismissively of Blinken. Iran convey intercepted and bombed on Syrian/Iraqi border, Israeli airforce now bombing hostile targets on Lebanese border...
Harlow wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:29 pm
Israel war crimes! What were the Israelis doing last weekend, mostly enjoying themselves that I can see, with families and friends. Certainly not killing people. sh*t, even their military seem to have been off duty. So what changed, you don't really need me to explain. They are responding to the terrorism from Hamas and those supporting them from a distance. Malcolm Rifkin said it clearly this morning, the welfare of Palestinians is in their own hands ie Hamas. Do they all support Hamas, I doubt it but who is going to risk calling out these murderous bastards. Even the guy from the West Bank criticised Israel but not once did he blame Hamas.
War is evil. evil costs lives, England has done its own share of evilness.
So is there a solution? If I was an informed Palestinians I would, hey, get rid of the war mongers, accept Israel and TAKE THE $MILLIONS that will no doubt be on offer. I don't have to like Israel but I don't have to hate them either.
Malcolm Rifkind? F*cking LOL.
Yes sad, we could have had Emily Thornberry under Corbyn or John Healy (who he?) under Starmer as Defence Secretary, would be hilarious if not such a serious prospect!
Yay! Here’s the “could’ve been worse under Corbyn” line.
He was on the verge of a victory, did unexpectedly well, backed by several big hitters including Starmer. All of course in that position because of Miliband duped the real potential leader, his own brother.
Yes, I’m obviously going to have make this simpler for you.
1. What has Corbyn got to do with any of this?
2. Why would Healy or Thornberry under a Corbyn government be hilarious?
3. Miliband? WTF are you going on about?
Comment about Malcolm Riflind about three above mocking the former very experienced Defence Secretary’Malcolm Rifling F LOL’
I suggested that it could have been worse had we had Thornberry or Healy.
I then merely pointed out that Corbyn nearly achieving high office was due to Miliband . I meant he lost an election and should not have been leader in first place as David Miliband was the better prospect by far.
I would have voted for Miliband like I voted for Blair. Unfortunately, Blair turned out to be a ready poised warmonger.
Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 5:24 pm
Comment about Malcolm Riflind about three above mocking the former very experienced Defence Secretary’Malcolm Rifling F LOL’
I suggested that it could have been worse had we had Thornberry or Healy.
I then merely pointed out that Corbyn nearly achieving high office was due to Miliband . I meant he lost an election and should not have been leader in first place as David Miliband was the better prospect by far.
I would have voted for Miliband like I voted for Blair. Unfortunately, Blair turned out to be a ready poised warmonger.
Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 5:24 pm
Comment about Malcolm Riflind about three above mocking the former very experienced Defence Secretary’Malcolm Rifling F LOL’
I suggested that it could have been worse had we had Thornberry or Healy.
I then merely pointed out that Corbyn nearly achieving high office was due to Miliband . I meant he lost an election and should not have been leader in first place as David Miliband was the better prospect by far.
I would have voted for Miliband like I voted for Blair. Unfortunately, Blair turned out to be a ready poised warmonger.
What could have been worse under Corbyn? Please feel free to add some workings when you present your answer
