The trans debate

[CEB]

Lisa Nandy rowing back frantically from claiming two years ago that male people should be in women’s prisons if they say they’re women.
Apparently claims now she was “unduly swayed by young activists”
There’s been a lot of that about.

https://archive.is/2023.07.28-210544/ht ... cbc3a81f28

[Proposition Joe]

Tbf there isn't a position Nandy won't row back on.

[CEB]

One day I’ll be wrong about some aspect of this…

Whistleblowers at the Tavistock, parents raising the alarm about ideologues at LGBT charities presenting puberty blockers as harmless (hello mick!) and women speaking out despite the huge cost of talking about it publicly did this.

[faldO]

Is calling a trans woman a w**ker transphobic? Yes, according to an employment tribunal, who said that "w**ker" is not a gender-neutral term.

Bus driver Amanda Fischer alleged that a fellow bus driver called her a w**ker at the bus depot and she faced discrimination. She subsequently had her employment terminated for a number of reasons and took her case to a tribunal.

The report said "the panel members’ own experiences of use of that term is that it is applied to men, and that there are equivalent but different swear words that are specifically used in common parlance to insult women.". To insult a trans woman without being discriminatory, female-specific slurs should be used instead.

It turned out to be a moot point anyway, because although the tribunal found that the term is discriminatory, they decided that she hadn't been called a w**ker in the first place.

It's hard not to find the whole case comical, notwithstanding any anxiety caused to the bus driver herself. The full 35 page report, including details of the "near miss incident", the "insult incident", the "angry passenger incident", and the "hard braking incident" is here: https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribunal- ... slash-2021.

[CEB]

If, as Stella Creasy maintains, some women have penises, then why would it not be reasonable to use “w*nker” as a proportionate insult to any penised individual?

[Dunners]

Or, perhaps we all need to do our bit to create a more equal society, by calling women w*ankers too at every opportunity?

[Proposition Joe]

A story about someone clearly on the make who happens to be trans/going through reassignment and was using that fact to try to make ££££ from a tribunal. They come across as a ridiculous person, who also has a personality disorder.

[Sid Bishop]

If, as Stella Creasy maintains, some women have penises, then why would it not be reasonable to use “w*nker” as a proportionate insult to any penised individual?

''If, as Stella Creasy maintains, some women have penises''
Really, is that what she says and thinks ?
Wonder if Is she in line for a ministers job if as seems likely, Labour win the next election ?
If so then ''Stella Creasy, Minister for muddled up thinking'' !

[CEB]

I’d give more credibility to your take on cases about individuals, PJ, if you ever engaged on anything substantive about the issues with trans activism, which you avoid. Of course this story is about an entitled man. Now do “how trans activism supports entitled men at the expense of women”…

[CEB]

If, as Stella Creasy maintains, some women have penises, then why would it not be reasonable to use “w*nker” as a proportionate insult to any penised individual?

''If, as Stella Creasy maintains, some women have penises''
Really, is that what she says and thinks ?
Wonder if Is she in line for a ministers job if as seems likely, Labour win the next election ?
If so then ''Stella Creasy, Minister for muddled up thinking'' !

Yes, that’s really what she says. As for what she thinks? I think she thought it was politically expedient for her to say she believes that, and is probably keeping her counsel for a while until she next licks her finger and sticks it up in the air to see which way the wind is blowing

[Proposition Joe]

I’d give more credibility to your take on cases about individuals, PJ, if you ever engaged on anything substantive about the issues with trans activism, which you avoid. Of course this story is about an entitled man. Now do “how trans activism supports entitled men at the expense of women”…

Did trans activists support this person's claim regarding unfair dismissal?

[CEB]

I think you misunderstand me - I’m not particularly interested in this case - you’ll note that my response to the poster who mentioned it was actually to point out how the findings further illustrate the incoherence of the idea of the female penis, as supported by well known politicians.

What I’m saying is that it’s a bit beneath you to *only* post on here about an individual you can dismiss as having no wider importance (and go on to imply that there’s no context to the idea of a mentally ill man leveraging transphobia to attack people who he dislikes) , when you’ve studiously ignored ever saying anything of substance about trans activism and the various areas of contention around it that have been highlighted on this thread.

[CEB]

One day I’ll be wrong about some aspect of this…

Whistleblowers at the Tavistock, parents raising the alarm about ideologues at LGBT charities presenting puberty blockers as harmless (hello mick!) and women speaking out despite the huge cost of talking about it publicly did this.

I mean, this wasn’t a story about a grifter on the make, but you didn’t post about it? Do you see that if you only post to dismiss that anything wider can be read into an individual (which I don’t completely disagree with, though there’s context in that this is a live debate) , but don’t post in response to substantive areas of actual importance where there important new developments, that’s not actually a neutral way of engaging with the debate. “Ignore big stuff, say that little stuff doesn’t matter”

[Sid Bishop]

Mother - birthing people or birthing parent

An NHS Trust used the term 'birthing people' instead of 'mothers'.
NHS Norfolk and Suffolk Foundation Trust said it was seeking 'birthing people' to provide feedback on its perinatal services in a social media post last August. But the Trust, which specialises in mental health treatment, was accused of leaving biological females out of the conversation by its failure to use the terms 'women' or 'mothers' in its communications.
Some members of the public called it 'dehumanising' and 'dangerous nonsense'.
Similar language trickled through to midwifery degrees over the last year.
At the University of Bradford, an internal document detailing the course specifications for midwives who trained in 2022/23 refers to 'childbearing people' four times and 'birthing people' eight times. In contrast, the word 'women' is mentioned just three times in the 11-page document, while 'mother' is not mentioned at all.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/arti ... agina.html

[CEB]

This aspect of the debate has been covered at length, the daily Mail has nothing useful to say about it. The Mail is not the ally of woman

[Sid Bishop]

This aspect of the debate has been covered at length, the daily Mail has nothing useful to say about it. The Mail is not the ally of woman

Does not matter that this article is from the Daily Mail, what that article states is fact e.g Women referred to as 'birthing people' instead of 'mothers' and many other nonsense pc terms which have been quoted in many different news medias.
Perhaps being as all the aspects of this debate have been repeatably covered so many times ( especially by yourself ) time to close and lock this debate.

[CEB]

You think the thread should be closed because you’re personally unable to bring anything new to the table?

[Currywurst and Chips]

Trans woman cyclist threatens to fight decision to ban her from female events “in the courts and the streets”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tran ... -hf7st2f5c

[CEB]

That guy is mad. And Vogue magazine made him one of the 25 women on their Power List. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to to validate men’s fantasies.

[Currywurst and Chips]

That guy is mad. And Vogue magazine made him one of the 25 women on their Power List. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to to validate men’s fantasies.

Dunno what you mean mate, most of the women I know are regularly offering out people they don’t like for a scrap

[CEB]

You’re from Ilford right?

[Sid Bishop]

You think the thread should be closed because you’re personally unable to bring anything new to the table?

This from a person guilty of boring the pants off everyone with his obsessive mass repetition and domination on this thread !

[CEB]

“I, who cuts and pastes Mail articles and wonders why nobody cares, take issue with the person on this thread who knows most about the subject being prepared to discuss it”

Mate just stay off the thread if you don’t like it. I don’t care. Or for me.

[Orient_Man_And_Boy]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/0 ... nal-rules/

[Max Fowler]

Can you w*nkers please stop posting paywalled links?

What does PSH stand for please?