The trans debate

[Long slender neck]

Do you think its okay to tell children that they could be born in the wrong body Sid? And then medicalise and butcher them so they have the 'correct' body?

I dont think it should be rammed down young peoples throats, let the children grow up and decide for themselves as to how they wish to live their lives.
Its a very complicated business. Fact of the matter is that some children have the looks and mannerisms of the opposite sex and go through hell in their lives, especially when growing up in school via abuse and especially in the case of feminine type boys who may get beaten up because they are different to the other boys. Nothing is perfect in these cases, but sometimes a better and more acceptable life is possible by a transition to the lifestyle of the opposite sex. Early intervention via puberty blockers and hormone treatment can make the transition easier so that in the case of male to female transition, can give the person more or less normal female body shape and facial looks, also the voice will not break and no Adams apple will develop. The very latest brain scan technology have shown that many male to female transsexuals have the much the same brain formations and patterns as genetic female brains. Also of course there are many people born who are intersex, with neither fully formed male or female genitals. Very unfortunate to be born with any of these problems so help to be given in any way possible.

Feminine boys- I think we should accept them as they are, not give them 'treatment' and surgery. Do you agree?

[tuffers#1]

Yo werent here for TTM GATE were you ? Shhhhhh , we arent allowed to talk about it .

I wonder why certain people ( busybodies ) get so wound up about people wanting to be what they want to be, controlling nature for sure !
If it does not hurt anyone or affect you personally why get so wound up about it, non of anyone else s business !
I dont agree with others trying to impose ( dictate ) their own thoughts and ways of living onto other people as to how they should live out their lives.
I have known a few bigoted/ homophobic men who have had to change their mindsets in a big way when their own children turn out to be gay or trans when they grow up !

Not often we agree sid ,But I make you right on this .

[Sid Bishop]

Do you think its okay to tell children that they could be born in the wrong body Sid? And then medicalise and butcher them so they have the 'correct' body?

I dont think it should be rammed down young peoples throats, let the children grow up and decide for themselves as to how they wish to live their lives.
Its a very complicated business. Fact of the matter is that some children have the looks and mannerisms of the opposite sex and go through hell in their lives, especially when growing up in school via abuse and especially in the case of feminine type boys who may get beaten up because they are different to the other boys. Nothing is perfect in these cases, but sometimes a better and more acceptable life is possible by a transition to the lifestyle of the opposite sex. Early intervention via puberty blockers and hormone treatment can make the transition easier so that in the case of male to female transition, can give the person more or less normal female body shape and facial looks, also the voice will not break and no Adams apple will develop. The very latest brain scan technology have shown that many male to female transsexuals have the much the same brain formations and patterns as genetic female brains. Also of course there are many people born who are intersex, with neither fully formed male or female genitals. Very unfortunate to be born with any of these problems so help to be given in any way possible.

Feminine boys- I think we should accept them as they are, not give them 'treatment' and surgery. Do you agree?

Well if they wish to live their lives as females, let them do so and if it is their own wish to take medication and go down the surgery route, then their choice but IMO, surgery should only be allowed when older, perhaps over 18 years old. Better that then their personal situation becoming so unbearable that these young people risk becoming suicidal.

[Long slender neck]

Do you think a child could consent to changing their gender? Do you not think there could be any better solution? (if indeed one is even required)

[CEB]

My 2.5 year old saying that girls wear dresses and boys don’t already. it starts early the stereotyping.

Right. And that’s the problem.

A society in which a child of two can passively gain a sense that some clothes, colours, interests are for boys and some are for girls, is a society that imposes a rigid structure onto children, which isn’t always a good fit for everyone.

That’s the context in which childhood gender dysphoria is created - a child who feels that the idea that there are clothes, toys that they want to play with but are not appropriate because of their sex, is a child at risk of believing there is a mismatch between their sense of self and their body.

The messages that that child needs to hear, loud and clear, unambiguously, is this:

“Whether you are a boy or a girl makes no difference to what you can wear, play with, what interests you have; anyone saying “boys can’t do this” or “only girls do that” is very silly”

If, however, the child is getting one or more of these messages (coming from different extremes, but equally damaging):

“You can’t play with that! That’s for girls/boys”

or

“being a boy or girl has nothing to do with your body, it’s all about how you feel”

Then, based on the idea that even at 2 and a half a child has already picked up on there being expectations for boys and girls, there exists a context in which a child may perceive a mismatch between their sense of self and their sex.

That’s the whole problem of childhood dysphoria in a nutshell.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

My 2.5 year old saying that girls wear dresses and boys don’t already. it starts early the stereotyping.

She is right though, boys dont usually wear dresses.

he*

[Rich Tea Wellin]

My 2.5 year old saying that girls wear dresses and boys don’t already. it starts early the stereotyping.

Right. And that’s the problem.

A society in which a child of two can passively gain a sense that some clothes, colours, interests are for boys and some are for girls, is a society that imposes a rigid structure onto children, which isn’t always a good fit for everyone.

That’s the context in which childhood gender dysphoria is created - a child who feels that the idea that there are clothes, toys that they want to play with but are not appropriate because of their sex, is a child at risk of believing there is a mismatch between their sense of self and their body.

The messages that that child needs to hear, loud and clear, unambiguously, is this:

“Whether you are a boy or a girl makes no difference to what you can wear, play with, what interests you have; anyone saying “boys can’t do this” or “only girls do that” is very silly”

If, however, the child is getting one or more of these messages (coming from different extremes, but equally damaging):

“You can’t play with that! That’s for girls/boys”

or

“being a boy or girl has nothing to do with your body, it’s all about how you feel”

Then, based on the idea that even at 2 and a half a child has already picked up on there being expectations for boys and girls, there exists a context in which a child may perceive a mismatch between their sense of self and their sex.

That’s the whole problem of childhood dysphoria in a nutshell.

100% agree :O

I'm not sure where he's picked this up from our just observed it. I guess, as LSN said, it is generally true. But I think there's been times when parents have said 'i would have got x for him if he was a girl' which re-enforces what he should and shouldn't be playing with. Desperate to ensure he feels free to be whoever he wants ,it's almost impossible though...

[Long slender neck]

My 2.5 year old saying that girls wear dresses and boys don’t already. it starts early the stereotyping.

She is right though, boys dont usually wear dresses.

he*

Well how can you be so sure?

[CEB]

“ Well if they wish to live their lives as females”

It’s impossible for a male person to “live their life as a female”, because being female does not actually describe actions, but is a neutral descriptor of a body type.

The idea of “living life as a female” is actually built on the foundation OTF mentions his child has already picked up from society: the idea that there are behaviours and interests that are reserved for each sex, and that shouldn’t be adopted by the other.

Now, if a male person wishes to live in a way that society labels as “feminine” then of course he absolutely should be free to do so. But a feminine male is not a female person, because female people are not “femininity”, and because female people who *reject* femininity and gendered expectations are no less female than a female person who embraces gendered expectations enthusiastically.

[CEB]

My 2.5 year old saying that girls wear dresses and boys don’t already. it starts early the stereotyping.

Right. And that’s the problem.

A society in which a child of two can passively gain a sense that some clothes, colours, interests are for boys and some are for girls, is a society that imposes a rigid structure onto children, which isn’t always a good fit for everyone.

That’s the context in which childhood gender dysphoria is created - a child who feels that the idea that there are clothes, toys that they want to play with but are not appropriate because of their sex, is a child at risk of believing there is a mismatch between their sense of self and their body.

The messages that that child needs to hear, loud and clear, unambiguously, is this:

“Whether you are a boy or a girl makes no difference to what you can wear, play with, what interests you have; anyone saying “boys can’t do this” or “only girls do that” is very silly”

If, however, the child is getting one or more of these messages (coming from different extremes, but equally damaging):

“You can’t play with that! That’s for girls/boys”

or

“being a boy or girl has nothing to do with your body, it’s all about how you feel”

Then, based on the idea that even at 2 and a half a child has already picked up on there being expectations for boys and girls, there exists a context in which a child may perceive a mismatch between their sense of self and their sex.

That’s the whole problem of childhood dysphoria in a nutshell.

100% agree :O

I'm not sure where he's picked this up from our just observed it. I guess, as LSN said, it is generally true. But I think there's been times when parents have said 'i would have got x for him if he was a girl' which re-enforces what he should and shouldn't be playing with. Desperate to ensure he feels free to be whoever he wants ,it's almost impossible though...

Honestly we are not a million miles apart on this - I’m not surprised we agree, you’ve got an outlook on this sort of thing that’s instinctively progressive and well meaning. The only place we diverge is where I know more about how trans activism doesn’t stand for what you think it does, and actually reinforces stereotypes, not breaks them.

The cultural background noise that reinforces this stuff is insidious and constant - and in the same way that people can hear one piece of criticism among a lot of praise and the criticism sticks, so a nursery teacher, relative, shopkeeper, whoever, who says “that’s for boys” or “that’s for girls” can leave a lasting impression by making a child feel like they are doing something wrong/inappropriate.

[Max Fowler]

I'm not sure where he's picked this up from our just observed it.

It's everywhere. They can't not pick it up.

[Max Fowler]

Fact of the matter is that some children have the looks and mannerisms of the opposite sex and go through hell in their lives, especially when growing up in school via abuse and especially in the case of feminine type boys who may get beaten up because they are different to the other boys. Nothing is perfect in these cases, but sometimes a better and more acceptable life is possible by a transition to the lifestyle of the opposite sex. Early intervention via puberty blockers and hormone treatment can make the transition easier so that in the case of male to female transition, can give the person more or less normal female body shape and facial looks, also the voice will not break and no Adams apple will develop.

I'm not sure transitioning as a teen is going to help with the bullying at school, Sid.

[CEB]

Do you think a child could consent to changing their gender? Do you not think there could be any better solution? (if indeed one is even required)

The crucial thing here is about what we mean by “gender”, and why the word “gender” is used by advocates of the idea of a “trans child”, and not the word “sex”. The distinction is meaningful.

It’s important to unpack it in order to understand what the claim is, and why children (and credulous parents) are susceptible to harm through it.

There’s the obvious aspect that if we say “can a child consent to a sex change”, we all know that the answer is a clear “No”.

But the more relevant aspect is about meanings of words, and about how young children are reliant on being taught useful, meaningful definitions of words.
(For example, if you taught your child that “door” was the word for “breakfast cereal”, your child would ask to eat a door in the morning, and be confused when in a context where “door” means “door”)

So when trans organisations (including the toolkit they send to schools and the training given to teachers), actually use this:

“Whether your gender identity is that of a boy or a girl depends entirely on how you feel about yourself, it’s not about what sort of body you have!”

in a context where children already pick up on what they are *supposed* to feel like/be interested in, they are demonstrably adding to the risk of children feeling a mismatch between their bodies and the personalities.


And that would be, kind of, fine if that was all there was to it.
But somewhere along the line, despite the “it’s not about your body”, it becomes pathological and medical, as children with dysphoria are recommended puberty blockers to stop them going through the “wrong” puberty.

[CEB]

Sid advocating for the idea of a “normal female body” as a way of increasing self esteem.

So progressive.

[CEB]

How’s this for an idea - we work on making sure that boys don’t beat up boys who don’t fit regressive ideals of masculinity?

[Long slender neck]

Sid- do you think gay people were born in the wrong body?

[CEB]

Fact of the matter is that some children have the looks and mannerisms of the opposite sex and go through hell in their lives, especially when growing up in school via abuse and especially in the case of feminine type boys who may get beaten up because they are different to the other boys. Nothing is perfect in these cases, but sometimes a better and more acceptable life is possible by a transition to the lifestyle of the opposite sex. Early intervention via puberty blockers and hormone treatment can make the transition easier so that in the case of male to female transition, can give the person more or less normal female body shape and facial looks, also the voice will not break and no Adams apple will develop.

I'm not sure transitioning as a teen is going to help with the bullying at school, Sid.

That *might* be one aspect that is helped, albeit in a sledgehammer/nut situation. Many of the accounts of this sort of thing I’ve read have involved social transition and puberty blockers as a teen *and* a move to a new area, new school, and with the new school being highly, highly alert to any potential of a child being bullied for a gender identity.

Part of why transition is able to be framed as such a positive option is because of the short term, immediate life changes that seem unambiguously positive - a community effectively lovebombing you, a school that is waaaay more interested in your experiences of bullying than if the bullying was for a mundane reason…

Part of what’s so obviously weird about it - as Sid demonstrates - is that the advocates of child transition actually agree with the bullies. The bullies attack a gender non conforming boy, and the grown ups who are supposed to help actually effectively say “maybe there isn’t room in maleness for a boy like you”

[CEB]

Genuinely quite weird that Sid is accusing his imagined opponents as seeking to “control nature” when he’s openly advocating hormonal interventions to block puberty, then hormonal and surgical interventions to make an unhappy teenager more closely resemble the opposite sex.

[tuffers#1]

Sid- do you think gay people were born in the wrong body?

Do you ?

[CEB]

Obviously he doesn’t, but LSN isn’t the person here with a cavalier approach to giving puberty blockers and eventually surgery to feminine young boys.

[tuffers#1]

Sid- do you think gay people were born in the wrong body?

Do you ?

[CEB]

LSN’s answer will just be “No”, that’s not a gotcha question of any sort.

[Long slender neck]

Sid- do you think gay people were born in the wrong body?

Do you ?

No, its not possible for anyone to be born in the 'wrong' body.

[tuffers#1]

Sid- do you think gay people were born in the wrong body?

Do you ?

No, its not possible for anyone to be born in the 'wrong' body.

Can you then explain Caster Semenya who was born with male & female genetalia ?

[CEB]

Yes, Caster Semenya has an intersex condition, and is not “trans”. She was not “born in the wrong body”, unless you are suggesting that every person with a medical disorder or disability was also “born in the wrong body”

We *are* our bodies. Some of them don’t work very well, some of them are great at some things, terrible at other things.

Having a condition we would rather not have is not what is being discussed in the outmoded idea of “being born in the wrong body”; the assertion is that a person has some sort of “sexed soul” that has incorrectly ended up in the body of the opposite sex to that of the soul.

If you’re going to attempt to catch people out, it’s a good idea generally to understand the first thing about the subject.