The trans debate

[CEB]

If there’s gonna be a 1000th post, this tweet is a good one to use to summarise a sane understanding of the debate as a whole

[tuffers#1]

I copy and pasted the Joe headline. I've now listened to the audio, still not sure the summary is wrong really.

Joe regularly appear in my youtube timeline with videos like 'Angela Rayner DESTROYS Rishi Sunak' etc and 'Just Liz Truss being a complete loon'. So I reckon they're lefties.

The Joe article doesnt have the audio.

I've removed the BF tweet.

Joe isnt left wing

Joe is part of An Irish social media group Joe.ie Joe.co.uk & Her.ie . Very much aimed at teens & 20 somethiings, beer sport satire . Almost a mix of a sports mag & private eye , or just plain old p155 taking .

[CEB]

At the very end the girls say "So I said, how can you identify as a cat when you're a girl?"

Hands up: it seems that there actually was/is a girl in the class who identifies as a cat (or, at least, accounts are coming to light from students & parents that there is)

I dismissed it as I suspected it was wilful exaggeration of the issue by media outlets while detracting from the real substance, but it does seem like this is a thing.

Either way, it’s kind of separate from gender debates while also being entangled with it. It comes down to affirming mental illnesses, treating a coping strategy for trauma or living with autism as being a defining aspect of a child.

[Dunners]

At the very end the girls say "So I said, how can you identify as a cat when you're a girl?"

Hands up: it seems that there actually was/is a girl in the class who identifies as a cat

To be fair, I can see the appeal.

[CEB]

The weird thing is that despite being the biggest TERF on here, I’m instinctively dubious of anything that fits my likely prejudices/what suits me to be true.

The problem is that with this activism the nuttiest sh*t turns out to be true almost every time.

Over and over again - and you can even see it on this thread before some advocates realised they didn’t know their subject - people say “lol transphobes say X happens. Of COURSE it doesn’t!” then change their tune to “well of course X happens, what’s wrong with that?”

It’s been eye opening as a real time example of a “Big Lie” - and it’s fascinating because I know the stuff I’ve linked to sounds mad, but it’s also the case that I don’t link to the maddest stuff. But because of the level of absurdity trans activism operates in, just describing what the mainstream organisations say in black and white on their websites comes over as crazy.

So apologies to LSN, I underestimated the level of bullshit caused by a hastily adopted policy of affirmation of identities.

[Long slender neck]

A few weeks ago I heard from an in-law who is a teacher down south about a pupil 'identifying as a cat' . I immediately doubted the story too. I guess this was what they were talking about.

[CEB]

The issue around this is less the “lol does she get a litter tray?” type comments which ridicule the kid and the specifics, but more the subtly harmful thing where trauma in children manifesting in this way (or with claiming gender identities), where there are behaviours which would normally suggest abuse or dangerous beliefs at home, or evidence of autism/related conditions, are instead missed or played down in favour of a model that sees such behaviours as “identity” and sees identity as sacred.

[Max B Gold]

A few weeks ago I heard from an in-law who is a teacher down south about a pupil 'identifying as a cat' . I immediately doubted the story too. I guess this was what they were talking about.

It never happened.

[CEB]

Yes it did, he’s been corrected and has made a mealy mouthed commitment to change his story, but currently refuses to do so because the confirmation that it did happen hasn’t appeared in an unspecified outlet he would trust.
It’s also the case that that article literally says “and if there was, so what?” so the idiot who wrote it is trying to have his cake and eat it.
“It’s not happening”
and
“If it is, it’s fine”
Which is it?

[Long slender neck]

A few weeks ago I heard from an in-law who is a teacher down south about a pupil 'identifying as a cat' . I immediately doubted the story too. I guess this was what they were talking about.

It never happened.

Childhood is tough enough without the world’s media vilifying you. If a kid wants to identify as a cat, then who cares? If it makes them feel a happier and more fulfilled human being, then why should adult society and the global media bully them over it?

[CEB]

[CEB]

A few weeks ago I heard from an in-law who is a teacher down south about a pupil 'identifying as a cat' . I immediately doubted the story too. I guess this was what they were talking about.

It never happened.

Childhood is tough enough without the world’s media vilifying you. If a kid wants to identify as a cat, then who cares? If it makes them feel a happier and more fulfilled human being, then why should adult society and the global media bully them over it?

It is laughable, but a more sinister aspect is the idea that “adult society” should not interfere with children’s choices as to what makes them happy, on the basis that children know themselves.

[Long slender neck]

That Otto bloke is saying its all made up, but doesnt explain how he knows that.

[CEB]

That Otto bloke is saying its all made up, but doesnt explain how he knows that.

Otto is going on the same basis I was - assuming the teenager was discussing a hypothetical.
He hasn’t yet adjusted his view, because the parent of the teen in question has only confirmed the facts in the Telegraph, and he won’t accept it until it’s in the guardian or Pink News, presumably.

Weirdly, Maxyyyy didn’t feel moved to “like” or post in support of me when I said exactly what Otto said, not has Maxyyy bothered to look at Otto’s credibility

[Long slender neck]

Otto says if its real, its fine anyway.

[CEB]

Which is classic for trans activists.

See:
“No child is being given puberty blockers/surgery!”
to
“If they are, I suspect the medical professionals know more than you”
to
“Game day - must dash” when clinics are shut down and charities investigated

[CEB]

Aside from anything else, it’s very interesting to look into just the “cat identity” aspect of this story to get an idea of how facts can be seen as optional parts of the story, and have no impact on people’s position.

One guy gets into an argument with Dom Joly, and in the exchange Dom uses “you worked with GB news” as if it inherently undermines the specifics of this case.

And I have some sympathy with the idea of dismissing GB a news, but it’s interesting then, that progressive newspapers/outlets presumably do have a responsibility to actually *cover* stories like this, if only to show the robust reporting, and to get a record of the facts, framed neutrally or with a progressive perspective?

In that context, not covering the story is irresponsible, isn’t it?

It’s hard not to conclude that the guardian is now reliant on not covering this stuff, because a grown up newspaper can’t cover it positively without looking ridiculous.

Though I suspect Zoe Williams will briefly write about it as if it didn’t happen in an inane column in six weeks.

[tuffers#1]

Are Cat Children given canine suppressants ?

[CEB]

My concern on it is this:
The focus on the “cat” part of this story provides some tabloid sensationalism, but also moves the window of what’s OK a bit more towards the mad: eg

“it’s one thing accepting that a boy is a girl, but accepting a kid is a cat? No way”

But the most important fact remains that boys with personalities and interests considered “feminine” are not girls, and that that matters.

[Max B Gold]

Yes it did, he’s been corrected and has made a mealy mouthed commitment to change his story, but currently refuses to do so because the confirmation that it did happen hasn’t appeared in an unspecified outlet he would trust.
It’s also the case that that article literally says “and if there was, so what?” so the idiot who wrote it is trying to have his cake and eat it.
“It’s not happening”
and
“If it is, it’s fine”
Which is it?

Another right winger piles in.

[CEB]

I think you meant to say “ah my bad, turns out that the guy who wrote the article doesn’t know whether the cat element is true or not, and is a crank who thinks that it’d be fine anyway”

By all means carry on with your weird semi-engagement on here, but you’re not landing any blows and you’re the last person on this board even attempting to agree with these fools.

[Max B Gold]

I think you meant to say “ah my bad, turns out that the guy who wrote the article doesn’t know whether the cat element is true or not, and is a crank who thinks that it’d be fine anyway”

By all means carry on with your weird semi-engagement on here, but you’re not landing any blows and you’re the last person on this board even attempting to agree with these fools.

Thank you for the permission to continue on here. I don't really care if its true or not. In fact I haven't even read it but it was decent bait to set you off and it worked. LSN - take the lesson.

[CEB]

I see that your disappointment with an ill informed electorate doesn’t extend as far as “so I’ll hold a discussion about live issues in good faith only” to avoid adding to the problem.

You’re a coward really. But not as much as those who have clearly had a growing sense that there’s something iffy with this activism but who have gone along with it too much to risk disagreeing

[Max B Gold]

I see that your disappointment with an ill informed electorate doesn’t extend as far as “so I’ll hold a discussion about live issues in good faith only” to avoid adding to the problem.

You’re a coward really. But not as much as those who have clearly had a growing sense that there’s something iffy with this activism but who have gone along with it too much to risk disagreeing

I'm a coward you're a witting accessory to the wider culture war campaign to spread hate. I know which one I prefer.

[CEB]

There he goes again.

If only he’d been able to support such an assertion over any of the preceding 500 pages