The trans debate

[CEB]

As Caca kind of asks above - is there any other context where left wing men would remain silent when people call a lesbian with short hair a man? Any context where they wouldn’t recognise and condemn the misogyny?

[Max Fowler]

In reference to the gender wars programme last night, trans ally thinks Kathleen Stock is a trans man in the closet because she has short hair, wears trousers and rejects gender stereotypes.

Again - any lefties changing their minds on this yet? Anyone thinking that *maybe* trans activism actually is misogyny and individualism dressed up as progress?

I've had a quick look at the replies and the tweet has been universally ridiculed. I'm not sure this adds much to your case.

[CEB]

It’s been ridiculed entirely by people on my side of the “debate”. It’s saying the quiet bit out loud but it’s *exactly* what Mermaids and Stonewall mean when they talk of a “gender spectrum”; they can’t conceive of the idea that a woman might reject “femininity” while still being female.
Do you remember when I posted the slide from
mermaids training, where it displayed a gender spectrum that ranged from “princess barbie” to “gi Joe”? Well, when people have been taught that “identifying with princess barbie = being a girl”, the logical conclusion is that rejecting that = not being a girl.

The difference now is that there’s enough dissenters to ridicule these f***ing pricks. But every last person calling out that homophobic bumhole there, has been called a TERF, been called a transphobe, been called a bigot, for recognising the issues earlier.

Basically; the point is that it’s incumbent on anyone who isn’t homophobic to criticise such attitudes, right?

[CEB]

Again, a scandal that the guardian won’t cover and where other coverage is dismissed out of hand is hard to spot if you don’t actually do the boring stuff that makes you look obsessed, but here is the audio from a training session delivered by Mermaids, recorded a couple of years back by a guy who had questions

This is what I mean - it’s easy to point at one idiot on Twitter as an outlier, but this is what the organisations actually think: organisations that make referrals to gender clinics after GP’s have refused, organisations that do actually think that “refusal to have pigtails” is a sign that a two year old girl is a boy.

[CEB]

Billy Bragg comes out as a homophobe and as someone terrible in bed, who thinks that sex is only sex if it is penis in vagina.






(For anyone unsure of the issue here - he is saying that a man saying “I’m a woman because I feel like one and you have to accept me as such” is the same as saying “I’m attracted to members of my own sex”)

[CEB]

This is nonsense:



Nobody is required to “believe” that Kathleen Stock is a lesbian, society simply (correctly) notes that women who are same sex attracted have the right to be same sex attracted without harassment or intimidation.

That’s a right that Stock would support for trans people - the right to be trans without harassment or intimidation.

What Billy (and lots of lefty men are confused about) is that recognising someone’s right to be “trans” does not mean having to believe that their sex is never relevant.

Billy Bragg opines on this issue a lot, and does not understand the first thing about it. As shown by his utter bafflement at the most simple challenge he receives (curiously, he responds to men who challenge him, rarely women)

[CEB]

Spot the difference.
Note to anyone who has scoffed at the idea of “erasing women”; this is what is meant - removing language that allows women to be a politically distinct group with their own interests.
Relevant when we have men pontificating about when exactly women should lose their bodily autonomy…

[Long slender neck]

https://www.joe.co.uk/news/teacher-labe ... cat-397693

Teacher labels schoolgirl ‘despicable’ after she refuses to accept that classmate ‘identifies as a cat’

[CEB]

Not remotely what happened, and a good example of why the right wing are not the people articulating a good response to gender ideology nonsense.
The teacher was an ill informed fool, but your summary of it is inaccurate. The “cat” was brought up as a hypothetical, and isn’t a referal to an actual existing child in the school.

[Long slender neck]

Got a more reliable source? Thought Joe was lefty leaning?

[CEB]

The reliable source would be listening to the audio yourself. It’s freely available online.
Why not start actually doing some thinking yourself instead of outsourcing with tedious nonsense like this?

[Long slender neck]

Apologies for asking for a link.

[CEB]

apology accepted

[Long slender neck]

Good to hear some young people standing up to this.

[CEB]

I think at this point literally everyone on this board whose opinion I remotely give a toss about, understands that my position is “the left ignoring obvious bullshit allows space for the right wing to sound reasonable, while seeking to demonise vulnerable groups”

So I guess, thanks are in order for you finding a link that backs me up?

[Long slender neck]

Keef told me to, its the first recording that comes up if you search 'rye college'.

[CEB]

He’s linking to Britain First to troll me into again clarifying that my objections to some aspects of trans activism are not coming from a right wing perspective, not because BF have said anything he likes.

It’s a timely reminder that all he’s ever doing is trolling, not discussing.

[CEB]

Told you

[Long slender neck]

I posted a link from a left wing source, you told me its bollocks and refused to provide a better alternative source.

I search for 'Rye College' on Twitter and the BF recording appeared. There's one or two others, also look right wing.

[CEB]

I didn’t tell you the source was bollocks - I said that your summary is not at all what happened. Since I’ve never heard of Joe.co.uk, since the name sounds a bit “lads lads banter eh” and since you seem to have reached an erroneous understanding of the incident, I assumed it’s right wing.

However I’m unclear why you are asking me for “sources”: every source you’ve posted contains the actual audio. Why don’t you listen to the audio and use your brain? Again, it’s because you’re shitposting, not interested in understanding. It’s tedious. And whether doing it for wide eyed innocent WUMs or not, linking to Britain First is a c***ish thing to do. If you’re not a c***, don’t do it.

[Long slender neck]

I copy and pasted the Joe headline. I've now listened to the audio, still not sure the summary is wrong really.

Joe regularly appear in my youtube timeline with videos like 'Angela Rayner DESTROYS Rishi Sunak' etc and 'Just Liz Truss being a complete loon'. So I reckon they're lefties.

The Joe article doesnt have the audio.

I've removed the BF tweet.

[CEB]

The audio is confusing because you’re listening to a discussion between an adult who doesn’t understand the topic at hand, but who is nevertheless committed to the idea that despite not understanding the topic, it’s important that she isn’t on the “wrong side” of the topic, and a child who is asking rudimentary questions that this activism can’t answer.

The teenager also doesn’t fully understand, but isn’t ethically resistant to asking the obvious questions.

The “cat” example seems to me to have been something the student reached for when looking for an analogous example of being asked to support an identity that she finds somewhere around absurd/untrue.

I don’t claim to know whether the teacher is a fully committed trans ally activist type, or whether she is well meaning and has taken the teaching materials at face value and is doing her best to square a circle.

What is clear is that the teaching of this stuff relies on it being taken at face value and not scrutinised.
It’s very different from, say, gay rights, in that sense because any teacher with even a quarter of a brain would be able to address any question from a teenager in a way that fully countered any existing prejudice or misconceptions.

[Long slender neck]

At the very end the girls say "So I said, how can you identify as a cat when you're a girl?"

[CEB]

I’m unclear what conclusions you’d like me to draw from that? And why a flustered schoolgirl returning to an analogy has convinced you that there is an actual child who identifies as a cat?

As far as I’m aware, there’s no actual suggestion that
1: there is a real child being referred to
and
2: that the school has a policy of doing whatever the hell “respecting their cat identity” would mean.

So the story here, the only one that’s got any substance at all, is that the teaching materials are confusing, and that in this instance, there is now evidence to support anecdotal claims that children who question the teaching of gender ideology are subject to sanctions/discipline, despite their questions being obvious, fair ones, and despite the teachers having no good answers

[tuffers#1]

I copy and pasted the Joe headline. I've now listened to the audio, still not sure the summary is wrong really.

Joe regularly appear in my youtube timeline with videos like 'Angela Rayner DESTROYS Rishi Sunak' etc and 'Just Liz Truss being a complete loon'. So I reckon they're lefties.

The Joe article doesnt have the audio.

I've removed the BF tweet.

Joe isnt left wing