Primal Scream / Martin Duffy

[Admin]

Appreciate there's two sides to every story, but this is a painful read to anyone of a certain vintage.

[CEB]

Grim. Bobby Gillespie has always been a c***

[Orient Punxx]

Thanks

[Dunners]

Saw this earlier and commented on the death thread. It doesn't make for easy reading. In terms of how the money was allocated, the band seemed to operate in a way similar to The Smiths, where Morrissey and Marr were the business owners and Joyce and Rourke were the staff.

[PKM]

Fairly standard business model for a lot of bands.
Main guys keep vast majority of the money, other band members essential session musos paid per gig, even if long standing members.
Having said that Gillespie seems fairly heartless

[Scuba Diver]

That is truly grim reading indeed for poor Martin Duffy.
Of course- "two sides", but to be "paid per gig", and not much (it would seem) "per gig" if he was earning only £40kp.a. seems somewhat insulting..
It looks like the band (Gillespie/Innes) tried to encourage him into rehab. No mention of who would pay for that (at rates of £1k per week), it would seem Duffy didn't have the money.
A truly tragic tale.

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Believe the split on the Smiths was 40-40-10-10, which Rourke/Joyce signed at the start. Of course, no band without Morrissey/Marr (as talented as Rourke was he didn't write songs), but that seems heavily loaded in Morrissey/Marr's favour if Rourke/Joyce get to split only 20% of "everything".....

[Dunners]

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Believe the split on the Smiths was 40-40-10-10, which Rourke/Joyce signed at the start. Of course, no band without Morrissey/Marr (as talented as Rourke was he didn't write songs), but that seems heavily loaded in Morrissey/Marr's favour if Rourke/Joyce get to split only 20% of "everything".....

Just been reading up on it and you're right. 10% of something is better that just being paid per gig, I guess. And, as you said, it was what they signed up to. The statement regarding Martin Duffy seems to hint that this may not have been so clear cut in his case.

Anyway, this has sent me down a rabbit hole, and I came across this article explaining how Radiohead manage their finances through complex company structures akin to a conglomerate:

www.theguardian.com/music/2016/apr/29/r ... ture-firms

[Dunners]

90s indie Twitter is alive with anecdotes of what a tw*t Bobby Gillespie is.

[Scuba Diver]

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Believe the split on the Smiths was 40-40-10-10, which Rourke/Joyce signed at the start. Of course, no band without Morrissey/Marr (as talented as Rourke was he didn't write songs), but that seems heavily loaded in Morrissey/Marr's favour if Rourke/Joyce get to split only 20% of "everything".....

Just been reading up on it and you're right. 10% of something is better that just being paid per gig, I guess. And, as you said, it was what they signed up to. The statement regarding Martin Duffy seems to hint that this may not have been so clear cut in his case.

Anyway, this has sent me down a rabbit hole, and I came across this article explaining how Radiohead manage their finances through complex company structures akin to a conglomerate:

www.theguardian.com/music/2016/apr/29/r ... ture-firms

If memory serves correctly, I'm sure Rourke/Joyce dragged the 'other 2' through the Courts, and won, to an extent (a larger slice of the pie).
Sad really to see 'bands' treating non-song writing 'members' as sessions musicians essentially. Of course Rourke, was an extremely talented bass player, to the extent you could argue that the band would not have been the same without him. Converserly though, Joyce (imo) was a just about competent drummer with little flair who Would have been easily replaceable.

The Radiohead article just confirms I suppose how much bands are "in it for the money", and nothing wrong with that of course to a degree. Now of course barring touring, and with the advent of digital, the money just isn't there in the way it was 25-30 years ago.
Excepting some of the huge hip-hop 'moguls' (maybe) all the planet's huge bands have been around 20+ years, and those coming through now, whilst no dount enjoying a 'following' are unlikely to enjoy the kind of wealth the old guard like Pink Floyd/Bowie/Led Zep, and even Radiohead, have or did have.

[JimbO]

I work in the music industry and it's the same for a lot of the bands where one of the members generally takes home the most money. Have also worked with some music management agencies. A lot of whom advise the bands to split everything equally a least for the first couple of albums so that every one has an equal share in making things work.

[Dunners]

Before he died in 2013, I became on good terms with Philip Chevron (guitarist with The Pogues). It was interesting speaking to him about how band finances work, and what they can expect to earn. He explained how, back in their earlier days, their manager took 10% of Gross income, and then the band divided what was left after expenses.

Despite some best selling albums and singles, sold out tours across America, Europe and Japan, they'd often end up exhausted at the end of the year with hardly a penny to their name. Sometimes they'd even be in debt. At first the money was divided fairly equally, but gradually this changed as they started to achieve more success with MacGowan and Finer getting most of the song writing credits.

For their fourth album everyone had wised up to how to play the game, so they all tried to get song writing credits. As a result the album was a pile of sh*t and (notwithstanding 3/4 of the Hell's Ditch album that followed) marked the beginning of their end. When they reunited in the mid-2000s, they made a pact to ruthlessly exploit their legacy to ensure they all had a decent final pay day and pension. They also took more careful control of the band's finances, with all members getting an equal share of performance money.

Chevron had managed to buy a modest house in Nottingham. He chose the location purely because he happened to be brought along to a Notts Forest game one day, and just decided he'd live there. He certainly didn't live a lavish lifestyle, but had enough to get by while enjoying his real passion in life - musical theatre.

[Max Fowler]

Before he died in 2013, I became on good terms with Philip Chevron (guitarist with The Pogues). It was interesting speaking to him about how band finances work, and what they can expect to earn. He explained how, back in their earlier days, their manager took 10% of Gross income, and then the band divided what was left after expenses.

Despite some best selling albums and singles, sold out tours across America, Europe and Japan, they'd often end up exhausted at the end of the year with hardly a penny to their name. Sometimes they'd even be in debt. At first the money was divided fairly equally, but gradually this changed as they started to achieve more success with MacGowan and Finer getting most of the song writing credits.

For their fourth album everyone had wised up to how to play the game, so they all tried to get song writing credits. As a result the album was a pile of sh*t and (notwithstanding 3/4 of the Hell's Ditch album that followed) marked the beginning of their end. When they reunited in the mid-2000s, they made a pact to ruthlessly exploit their legacy to ensure they all had a decent final pay day and pension. They also took more careful control of the band's finances, with all members getting an equal share of performance money.

Chevron had managed to buy a modest house in Nottingham. He chose the location purely because he happened to be brought along to a Notts Forest game one day, and just decided he'd live there. He certainly didn't live a lavish lifestyle, but had enough to get by while enjoying his real passion in life - musical theatre.

What was the point of your Phil Chevron anecdote?

[Dunners]

Before he died in 2013, I became on good terms with Philip Chevron (guitarist with The Pogues). It was interesting speaking to him about how band finances work, and what they can expect to earn. He explained how, back in their earlier days, their manager took 10% of Gross income, and then the band divided what was left after expenses.

Despite some best selling albums and singles, sold out tours across America, Europe and Japan, they'd often end up exhausted at the end of the year with hardly a penny to their name. Sometimes they'd even be in debt. At first the money was divided fairly equally, but gradually this changed as they started to achieve more success with MacGowan and Finer getting most of the song writing credits.

For their fourth album everyone had wised up to how to play the game, so they all tried to get song writing credits. As a result the album was a pile of sh*t and (notwithstanding 3/4 of the Hell's Ditch album that followed) marked the beginning of their end. When they reunited in the mid-2000s, they made a pact to ruthlessly exploit their legacy to ensure they all had a decent final pay day and pension. They also took more careful control of the band's finances, with all members getting an equal share of performance money.

Chevron had managed to buy a modest house in Nottingham. He chose the location purely because he happened to be brought along to a Notts Forest game one day, and just decided he'd live there. He certainly didn't live a lavish lifestyle, but had enough to get by while enjoying his real passion in life - musical theatre.

What was the point of your Phil Chevron anecdote?

Now that you put it like that, I'm not sure. Maybe the earnings a member of a relatively successful band could expect to receive or something.

[Constanza]

I actually use the same method for my boarding.
The OFFICIAL Prediction Thread and the phrase "1-0 Orient Cox 3 minutes " is my main boarding company, the profits from which offset my other boarding ventures such as " Old Puns" , " Paddington 2" and "Morrissey".
I am still recovering financially from Slacker's Alias Reveal which led to the demise of " The Boarder" during early discussions with NU Venture Capital 11.4 about launching the first Boardcast.
My boarding has dropped in standsrds recently due to other commitments, but I still get royalties from a few tribute acts.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Gillespie is a silly sausage and the band are overrated outside of a couple of songs. Bang average.

[Max B Gold]

Before he died in 2013, I became on good terms with Philip Chevron (guitarist with The Pogues). It was interesting speaking to him about how band finances work, and what they can expect to earn. He explained how, back in their earlier days, their manager took 10% of Gross income, and then the band divided what was left after expenses.

Despite some best selling albums and singles, sold out tours across America, Europe and Japan, they'd often end up exhausted at the end of the year with hardly a penny to their name. Sometimes they'd even be in debt. At first the money was divided fairly equally, but gradually this changed as they started to achieve more success with MacGowan and Finer getting most of the song writing credits.

For their fourth album everyone had wised up to how to play the game, so they all tried to get song writing credits. As a result the album was a pile of sh*t and (notwithstanding 3/4 of the Hell's Ditch album that followed) marked the beginning of their end. When they reunited in the mid-2000s, they made a pact to ruthlessly exploit their legacy to ensure they all had a decent final pay day and pension. They also took more careful control of the band's finances, with all members getting an equal share of performance money.

Chevron had managed to buy a modest house in Nottingham. He chose the location purely because he happened to be brought along to a Notts Forest game one day, and just decided he'd live there. He certainly didn't live a lavish lifestyle, but had enough to get by while enjoying his real passion in life - musical theatre.

What was the point of your Phil Chevron anecdote?

If its pointless anecdotes you want here is an extract from Max B Gold's memoirs, Vol I - " The Mental Years"

Before he was the subject of a sacking from The Bluebells by Bobby Bluebell I knew their guitarist. No idea how they divided the loot but I can guess.

I tried to date the sacked guitarists sister but she thought I was an idiot, and you know back then I was. I suspect she reached that conclusion because we seriously battered some guys from Linwood at a party in her house. The Binwood guys were taking the mickey out of my mates speech impediment but didn't realise there were four of us dotted around the house and when he got the band together we were happy to get involved. We had to escape in Big Craigies dads Vauxhall Viva (Automatic) before the cops arrived.

I note from my memoirs that I once had a few pints with the geezer from Red Box in the Yorkshire Grey.

[Scuba Diver]

Gillespie is a silly sausage and the band are overrated outside of a couple of songs. Bang average.

Average indeed. Not crap, but decidedly average. Even their much creamed over magnum-opus Screamadelica is a 6.5/7 out of 10.

Most of the trumpeting of their work comes from North of the Border of course, since Gillespie/Innes tick the huge box of being Scottish.

Gillespie 'sounds' a right c*** really. I would hope for his sake (and those in his circle) that Isn't actually the case and that's just how it looks..

[Dunners]

Gillespie is a silly sausage and the band are overrated outside of a couple of songs. Bang average.

Average indeed. Not crap, but decidedly average. Even their much creamed over magnum-opus Screamadelica is a 6.5/7 out of 10.

I think it's a stretch to even credit Primal Scream for that album.

[Scuba Diver]

Gillespie is a silly sausage and the band are overrated outside of a couple of songs. Bang average.

Average indeed. Not crap, but decidedly average. Even their much creamed over magnum-opus Screamadelica is a 6.5/7 out of 10.

I think it's a stretch to even credit Primal Scream for that album.

Good point, Dunners- - essentially an Andy Weatherall production from top to bottom.

[Dunners]

Bobby Gillespie has written an article for The Guardian on the occasion of Shane MacGowan's funeral. It was open for comments.

The top comment was a snide remark along the lines of "at least his band mates didn't shaft him for money when he was at his most vulnerable" (or words to that effect. The Guardian have now deleted it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... eam-pogues

[Daily Express bot]

A very poignant testimony from a son but there are always two sides to a story, therefore I will not judge anyone.

[claptonCasual]

Sorry if this is a little off the topic, but I saw Primal Scream play a one off gig at Folkestone Leas Cliff Hall in 2005. Some of the material was new and an out of his head looking Bobby Gillespie was reading some of the lines off a piece of paper. It was the greatest gig I have ever been to.

[Dunners]

Despite some best selling albums and singles, sold out tours across America, Europe and Japan, they'd often end up exhausted at the end of the year with hardly a penny to their name. Sometimes they'd even be in debt.

It would appear that things are still the same. Interesting read here in The Guardian about the financial reality for bands and artists who are touring.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2024/ ... ylor-swift

[Max B Gold]

Despite some best selling albums and singles, sold out tours across America, Europe and Japan, they'd often end up exhausted at the end of the year with hardly a penny to their name. Sometimes they'd even be in debt.

It would appear that things are still the same. Interesting read here in The Guardian about the financial reality for bands and artists who are touring.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2024/ ... ylor-swift

Something has to be done. If only the rich can afford to be wandering minstrels pretty soon we will be up to our eyeballs in Mumford & Sons types. Nobody wants that and it has to be stopped by any means necessary.

[Dunners]

Despite some best selling albums and singles, sold out tours across America, Europe and Japan, they'd often end up exhausted at the end of the year with hardly a penny to their name. Sometimes they'd even be in debt.

It would appear that things are still the same. Interesting read here in The Guardian about the financial reality for bands and artists who are touring.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2024/ ... ylor-swift

Something has to be done. If only the rich can afford to be wandering minstrels pretty soon we will be up to our eyeballs in Mumford & Sons types. Nobody wants that and it has to be stopped by any means necessary.

I hear you, but what? The youngsters are not that into live music. I've tried explaining to my kids the glory of downing several pints of Guinness before getting your ribs cracked in a sweaty, heaving mosh pit and coming out covered in blood, vomit and p*ss. But they don't see the appeal for some reason. They're weird.