The trans debate

[Proposition Joe]

Going back a page or two as I don't read this avidly, but think I'm happy to be convinced that puberty blockers seem a pretty bad idea in most cases.

[CEB]

Going back a page or two as I don't read this avidly, but think I'm happy to be convinced that puberty blockers seem a pretty bad idea in most cases.

Genuinely glad to hear this. But also interested in this: what do you think of the fact that the people who have been making the case that puberty blockers are bad for years, have, almost by definition, *had* to have a near obsession with the topic in order to be heard at all, and then have the fact of the effort they have made, used as an inherent reason to disregard them?
I mean, I’m just ranting on a message board, but every woman, every detransitioned person, every safeguarding professional, who has discussed this and maintained their position has faced real social and professional consequences for it.

[Proposition Joe]

Meh, same thing happened to Galileo.

[CEB]

Seriously though, would I be correct in guessing that (again, ignoring stridency/rudeness of tone) that while you might naturally have been inclined to assume a casual support of trans rights, that my positions on this (which are characteristic of the left wing/centre “TERFs”) have turned out to be pretty much spot on?

I guess what I’m saying is - I know you’re one to hold good faith beliefs etc. is there anything on this topic (aside from “you’re obsessed” type stuff) where you think “he’s got this wrong, because X”? Because I genuinely only got to where I am now by carefully and determinedly looking for what substance there was to trans rights stuff that I wasn’t seeing

[Long slender neck]

Seems that everyday theres something new in this debate

[Long slender neck]

[CEB]

They posted a load of trite “how to be kind to trans people” while crediting Mermaids and got ratio’d by people suggesting they look at the news and the fact that mermaids is under investigation by the charity commission and hired a nonce sympathiser/activist onto its board of trustees…

One of the more entertaining aspects of this debate is when companies desperate for that sweet PR of getting brownie points for cost-free platitudes backtrack when they back the wrong horse.

[Long slender neck]

They've barely backtracked, they've deleted it because it attracted comments that 'werent in line with our values'.

[CEB]

Seems that everyday theres something new in this debate

The slogan on the poster is something that really interests me.
The questions it brings up to me, which I’d be interested in hearing everyone’s answers to (especially if they agree that trans women are “real women”) are these

1: what criteria or procedures does/should a male person need to meet/go through before you accept that individual as a “trans woman”

2: what does “real woman” mean in this context and why is it a more useful/meaningful category than “female adult human”

3: if you think about any of the aspects of your life where you would personally only consider including women - for example, as a heterosexual man I would only include women in my dating pool - would you include trans women on the basis that they are “real women” or would you privately, discreetly exclude them

4: if you would exclude trans women from areas of your life where you’d personally only include adult female humans, then on what basis do you think adult female humans should not have the right to do the same in areas where they feel it’s OK to exclude those who aren’t female?

[CEB]

They've barely backtracked, they've deleted it because it attracted comments that 'werent in line with our values'.

Yes, that’s the PR angle. Behind the scenes it will be the case that they’ve checked out the allegations against mermaids, recognised they’re true, and weaselled out - no mention of mermaids in the new tweet, and, as the trans activists have pointed out, they could have reposted with replies turned off.

[faldO]

Seems that everyday theres something new in this debate

One of the chants is "cut your system, f**k your hate, we are not open for debate."

[Long slender neck]

cool

[CEB]

Seems that everyday theres something new in this debate

One of the chants is "cut your system, f**k your hate, we are not open for debate."

Anyone seeing that banner who has been advocating for the trans rights position should be given pause. Also the guy holding it is a pervert who steals women’s clothes from airports

[Long slender neck]

I just find it odd that the usual lefties will not participate in this thread. It seems that trans activism is on the slide but at the same time we're seeing more and more of it in society.

[Dunners]

I just find it odd that the usual lefties will not participate in this thread.

That's unfair. I've participated plenty enough in this thread.

[Dunners]

They've barely backtracked, they've deleted it because it attracted comments that 'werent in line with our values'.

As someone who has had many a discussion with PR and Social Media teams on how to manage a public message without triggering a corporate crisis, trust me - they've backtracked.

[Long slender neck]

Why is that better than just admitting you made a mistake?

[CEB]

I used to find it odd that many lefties avoid it, I no longer do (but bear in mind that once people critique trans ideology they’re told they aren’t left wing anymore anyway)
I’ve had female left wing acquaintances and friends privately tell me they think I’m spot on on this but they can’t say so publicly, while other female left wing friends & acquaintances have threatened to try to get me sacked from my job at the time for my views (providing a pretty good reason why those women stayed out of it)

Meanwhile, lefty men staked a position on this early doors, and being pro-trans rights is “expected” - the only way some men can avoid having to be in an awkward position on this - and naming names here I’m talking PJ, Wally Banter, Mick McQuaid since he realised he was talking sh*t, Hutch (who has doubled down elsewhere on this but whose only contribution here was to say Wes Streeting is rubbish) - is by retreating to “it’s complex and stoked up”

In all honesty - I did similar when an ex of mine was a homeopath. I was previously an avid reader of Ben Goldacre, other rationalists/debunkers etc, but once I realised that homeopathy was the new focus of their criticism, I kind of unthinkingly shied away/would not let myself see those articles, because I didn’t want to see something that I couldn’t unsee and might have a serious impact. Cowardly as f*** in hindsight

[Dunners]

Why is that better than just admitting you made a mistake?

Because admitting you made a mistake in this situation means taking a side (whether that's the intention or not - that's how it will be perceived). And, for a company, taking a side comes with more risks than upsides so you will usually try not to do it.

[CEB]

Here’s a thing.

The orient adjacent band Steve White & The Protest Family, members of whom post here, have written a song obviously inspired by some of these issues.

These are the lyrics in full:

“GENDER-NEUTRAL TOILETS

There’s a gender-neutral toilet in our house
Like the one on a plane
And the one on a train
Like getting caught short in the woods in the rain.

There’s a gender-neutral toilet in our house
So politically correct
What did you expect
One or more types from which to select?

There’s a gender-neutral toilet in our house
How outré
To piss that way
What would the second world war generation say?

Who didn’t have a gender-neutral toilet in their house
Not because of pride
Or of bigotry implied
But because their gender-neutral toilet was outside”

My take on it is that it’s utterly witless, and I’d happily tell Steve White/Lol Ross that to their face.
But I’m interested in this: to me, the sexism of a song by a band of old men telling women off for wanting female spaces is glaring. But also there’s a massive, immediately apparent logical flaw that I bet everyone can see. Can any of the people I mentioned previously see the flaw? And, more interestingly, does anyone here on the left - PJ, Wally Banter, Mindsweep, Adz, oxo - think that this is a good short hand poetic summing up of why women are wrong on this?

[Max Fowler]

Why is that better than just admitting you made a mistake?

Because admitting you made a mistake in this situation means taking a side (whether that's the intention or not - that's how it will be perceived). And, for a company, taking a side comes with more risks than upsides so you will usually try not to do it.

What sort of idiot would ever admit to making a mistake or that they got something wrong?

[CEB]

I admit to making a mistake in sending you free artwork

[Max Fowler]

Here’s a thing.

The orient adjacent band Steve White & The Protest Family, members of whom post here, have written a song obviously inspired by some of these issues.

These are the lyrics in full:

“GENDER-NEUTRAL TOILETS

There’s a gender-neutral toilet in our house
Like the one on a plane
And the one on a train
Like getting caught short in the woods in the rain.

There’s a gender-neutral toilet in our house
So politically correct
What did you expect
One or more types from which to select?

There’s a gender-neutral toilet in our house
How outré
To piss that way
What would the second world war generation say?

Who didn’t have a gender-neutral toilet in their house
Not because of pride
Or of bigotry implied
But because their gender-neutral toilet was outside”

My take on it is that it’s utterly witless, and I’d happily tell Steve White/Lol Ross that to their face.
But I’m interested in this: to me, the sexism of a song by a band of old men telling women off for wanting female spaces is glaring. But also there’s a massive, immediately apparent logical flaw that I bet everyone can see. Can any of the people I mentioned previously see the flaw? And, more interestingly, does anyone here on the left - PJ, Wally Banter, Mindsweep, Adz, oxo - think that this is a good short hand poetic summing up of why women are wrong on this?

I can see the flaw. It should be 'Two or more types from which to select'. You can't select from just one type.

[Max Fowler]

I admit to making a mistake in sending you free artwork

I will still send you a thank you at some point. Just leaving it a few years.

[CEB]

In reference to the gender wars programme last night, trans ally thinks Kathleen Stock is a trans man in the closet because she has short hair, wears trousers and rejects gender stereotypes.

Again - any lefties changing their minds on this yet? Anyone thinking that *maybe* trans activism actually is misogyny and individualism dressed up as progress?