The trans debate

[CEB]

The most interesting recent development is that it seems that now that public awareness of the issues is up, despite trans activism saying “trans women are women”, “acceptance without exception”, and despite the principle of self ID seeking to enshrine in law that a woman is anyone who says she is one, trans criminals are now retrospectively described as “men dressing as women” (note that the story makes it clear that this man does identify as a woman), apparently once a “trans woman” is a criminal, his sex can reasonably be observed and considered relevant.

Is that true?

According to the article, in this instance, he's the one driving this:

'At the time of his arrest, he was presenting as Amy George but confirmed he wished to be addressed as Andrew Miller using "he" pronouns for simplicity.'

What a f*cking horrific case though. I dread to think how it could have ended up if the young girl hadn't been so brave.

My “apparently” was a bit of snark at inconsistent policies, but yes you’re correct; according to policy at BBC and most media outlets, the only relevant factor in whether *anyone* is described as a man or woman is the individual’s choice. So if this man was *not* comfortable with “He/Him” pronouns being used, the reporting would be of a woman who has abducted and abused a child.

[Dunners]

...a woman who has abducted and abused a child with her penis.

[Max Fowler]

...a woman who has abducted and abused a child with her penis.

No knob jokes, remember.

[Long slender neck]

Schools basically a mess because of lack of guidance
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-65473198

[CEB]

Schools basically a mess because of lack of guidance
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-65473198

The sane thing to do would be policies that do something like this.

1: abandon the idea of a “trans child”
2: promote the idea that children should not be bound by expectations based on stereotypes - promote that boys can have long hair, girls short, that all interests are for both sexes. Do this in a context where it’s recognised that being a boy or a girl does not and should not limit your personality, ambition, or interests
3: recognise that parents imposing gendered expectations is a safeguarding issue. But recognise that there are two types of this imposition: the first is “you can’t wear/play with that because you’re a boy!”. The second is “you like wearing/playing with that? Maybe you’re not a boy!”
4: a child who “comes out” at school as “trans” should be supported like this;
* reassured that the child’s claimed identity makes no difference to what they’re allowed to play with, like, enjoy.
* given support that explores why the child is experiencing distress with their sex, considering environmental factors, pressure to conform, being given definitions of boys and girls that skew their perspective etc
* reminded that being a boy or girl is a neutral fact about someone, not an identity

[Long slender neck]

Unisex uniforms?

[CEB]

Unisex uniforms?

Yep. Have uniform options for what children are more comfortable in, but maintain that the options are open to anyone who wants them.


Ultimately, the issue around “trans kids” is this: because humans are not “born in the wrong body”, and because humans can’t actually change sex (and because hormones and surgery to resemble the opposite sex is a drastic intervention) a child who presents with distress about their sex is overwhelmingly likely to be responding to societal messages about what they can and can’t do while having the body they have. Any messaging that a certain interest “isn’t for boys” demonstrably creates incongruence: “but I’m interested in this and I’m a boy. What does this mean for me?”

Now we have a social context where there are two extremes to such incongruence:

1: “I don’t know how the f*** my boy has got it into his head that he wants to play with barbies. I’ve bought him a sh*t load of Star Wars toys and hopefully Barbie is a phase”

and

2: “the fact that your (male) child is playing with Barbie dolls does not mean there’s anything wrong with her - in fact, she may be signalling that she is trans”

Both of these responses actually enable and affirm the dysphoria, both of these responses say something is wrong. The first says the behaviour is wrong; the second says the body is wrong (it doesn’t say this out loud, but it does lead to blocking puberty with hormones, the ultimate idea being that a male child with “female interests” eventually needs a body as close to female as it’s possible to get.


The biggest trick trans activism - mainstream orgs like Stonewall, the disgraced Mermaids - has pulled, has been in having social consequences for actually thinking clearly about it. Even here, note that me having a bee in my bonnet about this has led some to accuse me of “aligning with the far right” (clue - the far right are the ones telling boys they can’t have Barbies, trying to stamp out non-conformity)
Again, remember Mick McQuaid’s well meaning but incredibly dim point about a “trans child”; “there’s nothing about her that doesn’t present as female”, by which he meant “feminine”, and then quite happily and casually leapt from “a male is feminine” to “ergo a male is female” rather than “guess I’ve learned males can be feminine”

[Max Fowler]

1: “I don’t know how the f*** my boy has got it into his head that he wants to play with barbies. I’ve bought him a sh*t load of Star Wars toys and hopefully Barbie is a phase”

Aah, it's starting to make sense now...

[CEB]

Contd:
The grey area that is tricky for schools is in situations where this combination of events happens:

1: (eg) a male child is discouraged/banned from playing with feminine-coded toys at home, discouraged from being “effeminate”, pushed towards masculinity. Told off by parents when their behaviour leans towards the “feminine”
2: child begins to think something is wrong
3: child has no role models in the family or at school who say “of COURSE you can play with Barbie. Your dad is wrong, and we;re going to talk this through. But remember - you are you, and that’s fine”
4: child becomes aware of the idea of “trans children”, and realises that the idea of it explains their circumstances perfectly, because in the absence of the right support, that idea *does* fit perfectly
5: child discloses “trans identity” to school, school knows that the parents are likely to react badly to it, so weigh up whether to keep the identity secret or disclose to parent


The worrying thing about this is that that’s the stage where iffy charities like Mermaids get involved, and love bomb children and their families, and actually get to play to the parents prejudices.
It’s much, much easier to say

“yes, you were concerned about your child and that’s understandable, but you have to understand, your child is trans and you need to support her. Because if you don’t, that child will be at risk of suicide!” (followed by the child being out on a pathway to lifelong medication and pathologising of gender non-conformity)

than it is to say
“Mate, get over yourself. You don’t get to dictate your kids interests. If your little boy likes Barbie, buy him a f***ing barbie, and come to terms with the fact that you’re not getting the type of boy you thought you’d ordered. Oh you’re worried he’s gay? Well guess what, if he is you have to f***ing like it or lump it”

[CEB]

This is the full text of a children’s book by Rachel Rooney, which has been denounced as transphobic propaganda by high profile trans activists:

[Dunners]

Between Keef's trans policy and my housing policy I reckon we've just about got it spot on. It's just a shame we're such right wing fascists.

[Max B Gold]

Between Keef's trans policy and my housing policy I reckon we've just about got it spot on. It's just a shame we're such right wing fascists.

Cheer up. At least people are actually interested in the housing crisis rather than the culture warrior manufactured trans "debate".

[CEB]

Aaaaand there’s max’yyyy right on cue trying to impose that social cost of telling people to not care about the pathologising of gender non conforming children.
Truly, your insight into how little the issue matters is valuable.

[CEB]

Its a complex issue which I have differing opinions on, depending on the element.

If it was my child I would do my absolutely very best to support them and help them into being themselves. But I'd also try to do the very hard job of convincing them to wait. Your body and your mind changes so much before and after puberty. The things I wanted at 10 were very different at 16, as were the things i wanted at 23 are different today, ten years later. It's hard to understand that when you are young though and ultimately it's very difficult for anyone if they cant be themselves, no matter what age. I think you need to balance listening, understanding and your responsibility as a guardian.

That's the whole point of puberty blockers, which despite all the worried wailing, is the only treatment available to under 16's. They aren't completely without risk but it is a reversible treatment. The majority of children accessing the gender identity service don't receive any hormone treatment at all and the focus is on therapy and social transitioning if that's what they want.

From my already admitted limited experience, this thing about kids saying they were born in the wrong body is a misconception of how people present. Just going from the one person I know, everything about her behaviour presents as female and she's been like that all her life. It's not a passing fad, it's who she is.

Just a reminder that saying that a feminine male is “female” based on behaviour is an act within a “culture war”, and is a regressive one. What is this “female behaviour” that a boy can display? Over to you, max’yyy and mick

[Max B Gold]

Aaaaand there’s max’yyyy right on cue trying to impose that social cost of telling people to not care about the pathologising of gender non conforming children.
Truly, your insight into how little the issue matters is valuable.

I didn't say it doesn't matter only that you seem to be one of the few interested in it outside the main combatants.

[Max B Gold]

Its a complex issue which I have differing opinions on, depending on the element.

If it was my child I would do my absolutely very best to support them and help them into being themselves. But I'd also try to do the very hard job of convincing them to wait. Your body and your mind changes so much before and after puberty. The things I wanted at 10 were very different at 16, as were the things i wanted at 23 are different today, ten years later. It's hard to understand that when you are young though and ultimately it's very difficult for anyone if they cant be themselves, no matter what age. I think you need to balance listening, understanding and your responsibility as a guardian.

That's the whole point of puberty blockers, which despite all the worried wailing, is the only treatment available to under 16's. They aren't completely without risk but it is a reversible treatment. The majority of children accessing the gender identity service don't receive any hormone treatment at all and the focus is on therapy and social transitioning if that's what they want.

From my already admitted limited experience, this thing about kids saying they were born in the wrong body is a misconception of how people present. Just going from the one person I know, everything about her behaviour presents as female and she's been like that all her life. It's not a passing fad, it's who she is.

Just a reminder that saying that a feminine male is “female” based on behaviour is an act within a “culture war”, and is a regressive one. What is this “female behaviour” that a boy can display? Over to you, max’yyy and mick

It's not for me to pontificate and rule on what behaviour anyone displays. People are free to behave as they want provided it's moral and within the law.

[CEB]

Well done on missing the point so spectacularly. Pubs opened early today did they?

[CEB]

For avoidance of all doubt. Of course the “behaviour” of presenting as feminine is fine.

The question is on what basis does someone decide that a boy with “feminine” behaviour is female?

[Max B Gold]

For avoidance of all doubt. Of course the “behaviour” of presenting as feminine is fine.

The question is on what basis does someone decide that a boy with “feminine” behaviour is female?

The boy/girl gets to decide not you or your far right fellow travellers.

[CEB]

That post is so utterly stupid and ignorant that it’s beneath a response. Just going to say that I hold your intellectual laziness in utter contempt, and while I’m confident enough in my own politics to not give a sh*t how some drunkard labels them, I can say that I’m extremely comfortable with there being political distance between me and you.

[Max B Gold]

That post is so utterly stupid and ignorant that it’s beneath a response. Just going to say that I hold your intellectual laziness in utter contempt, and while I’m confident enough in my own politics to not give a sh*t how some drunkard labels them, I can say that I’m extremely comfortable with there being political distance between me and you.

There you go again with the personal insults. Did you forget to pick up your prescription for the anti anxiety meds?

[CEB]

Thus concludes Max’s compelling rebuttal to my argument. Summarised: “it doesn’t matter and I don’t care, but you’re right wing if you do, whatever you think, even though I don’t understand what you think”

Convincing.

[Long slender neck]

No need for either of you to get personal

[Long slender neck]

For avoidance of all doubt. Of course the “behaviour” of presenting as feminine is fine.

The question is on what basis does someone decide that a boy with “feminine” behaviour is female?

The boy/girl gets to decide not you or your far right fellow travellers.

You cant decide what sex you are.

[CEB]

For avoidance of all doubt. Of course the “behaviour” of presenting as feminine is fine.

The question is on what basis does someone decide that a boy with “feminine” behaviour is female?

The boy/girl gets to decide not you or your far right fellow travellers.

You cant decide what sex you are.

Woah there Adolf