Good to see you're not prepared to engage with the point I'm making. What you centerists dads seem to want is for anyone on the left to basically be told to f*** off, and then come election time, just loyally stick a cross in a box for Labour again. Oh and once that's done, f*** off again please.
Not sure of your circumstances but due to the state of this country, my kids will be lucky to be able to rent a property - forget owning one. If my youngest even considered university, he'll be saddled with massive debt for something that was freely available to me.
The NHS in this country is stretched beyond breaking point and in dire need of funding and staff. My parents will be lucky to receive any care in their dotage unless I pay for it. Workers rights are being eroded on a constant basis. Your rights to protest are being eroded. And where's Labour in this? Nowhere. We have a shadow health secretary who's funded by private healthcare firms and that's acceptable? No plans to even raise CGT. No empathy for asylum seekers. No plan to reform society or even examine the causes of issues affecting the vast majority. Just more red meat, crackdowns and some union jacks.
And yet I'm the problem here? f*** off.
My only answer is a new political party in conjunction with the unions. I'm not going to claim to be bright enough to have answers beyond this - what I do know is that the current system is f*cked for all but an exclusive few.
OK, can I jump in and try to engage on this?
There’s a crucial bit that you’re glossing over, and I think you’re too intelligent to not have spotted it yourself. It’s the bit where you say (paraphrasing) “if enough people withhold their vote, both parties might think twice/do more”.
You must know that that’s nonsense, and that the party that benefits from “people who want a better deal for societies most vulnerable” (which is the most likely cohort to withdraw their vote) is the Tories, and that they would welcome such a situation; the idea that it would give them pause is ludicrous.
For your point to be taken seriously, you have to be able to do more than that, because “Tories might have an epiphany if there’s low voter turnout” is every bit as fantastical as “Labour might lurch left once in power”
Fair enough - I've got lost in this one a bit and the point shouldn't apply to the Tories as they usually retain power on the back of an apathetic electorate.
My point I suppose is that Labour is reliant on the same circumstances so what's the point of them? No real alternatives offered but just waiting for enough of the electorate to switch horses to give them a quick go at running the country whilst the Tories have a short shower and come back looking a bit fresher. I wasn't a huge fan of Corbyn personally but at least he was offering an alternative vision.
My position is that a Labour government is the only starting point for more progressive politics. As starting points go, Starmer’s Labour will have a lot of room for improvement. If they don’t improve and this appetite for Maxx’yyyyys fresh socialist alternative actually exists, then that’s the time to focus on that movement, and to use it to either scare Labour into some better policies, or to replace Labour at the next election.
An alternative vision being offered is only as useful as the likelihood of it getting put into practice. 2019 made it pretty clear that right now, it’s not happening.
As a side note, I always thought it was a massive mistake for Labour to get manoeuvred into having a general election in 2019 anyway, which was always for Boris Johnson’s benefit, not that of the country
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:38 pm
Many thanks for the robust discussion just now but it does seem that the only way to get rid of the Tories at the next election is to Vote Labour.
There's always another way (don't listen to Dunnem).
I'm assuming that his lack of response is because he's gone for a long lunch with the Mayor of Perpignan to discuss how to access public funds to refurb his property there.
That or the CTRL key on his laptop has packed up through overuse.
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:38 pm
Many thanks for the robust discussion just now but it does seem that the only way to get rid of the Tories at the next election is to Vote Labour.
Great. And replace them with their 2nd XI. The country is utterly f*cked, screaming out for progressive government and the best option is a supposed socialist democratic party that has spent the last 3 years punching leftwards, announcing various crackdowns and basically offering to be slightly more efficient Tories.
Sorry, but I'm not playing. To vote Labour would be accepting them in their current guise. They've spent 3 years telling people like me to f*** off. So I'm doing as they want and f*cking off. And don't even bother with the Tory enabler bollocks. If more voters were prepared to reject the current state of play by not voting for either party, both of them might finally consider doing something worthwhile with the power their given, rather than just having power for the sake of it.
As you imply, parliament has limited "power". On foreign policy we do what the USA tells us. On economic and social issues the corporates, financiers call the shots. Parliamentary democracy is an illusion to protect the capitalist system and the power relations it creates.
If I was forced to eat a sh*t sandwich, I’d rather have it with nicer bread
How about we break some eggs and have an omelette instead?
I’m definitely up for breaking some eggs and having an omelette. Literally and metaphorically.
In the metaphor, the Tories are the sh*t sandwich on stale bread, Labour the sh*t sandwich on fresh bread, right?
So what does the egg represent? If you can tell me what I can do to make sure that I wake up with an omelette on the Friday after the election, I’m all in.
Why do we have to wait until election time to start breaking some eggs?
This is like playing table tennis? Is it my serve now? What point(s) do I need to be educated on Max?
Start with political economy and we will see how it goes from there. Anyway must dash have conference call with Doc re asbestosis claim for a family member.
This is like playing table tennis? Is it my serve now? What point(s) do I need to be educated on Max?
Start with political economy and we will see how it goes from there. Anyway must dash have conference call with Doc re asbestosis claim for a family member.
There’s a crucial bit that you’re glossing over, and I think you’re too intelligent to not have spotted it yourself. It’s the bit where you say (paraphrasing) “if enough people withhold their vote, both parties might think twice/do more”.
You must know that that’s nonsense, and that the party that benefits from “people who want a better deal for societies most vulnerable” (which is the most likely cohort to withdraw their vote) is the Tories, and that they would welcome such a situation; the idea that it would give them pause is ludicrous.
For your point to be taken seriously, you have to be able to do more than that, because “Tories might have an epiphany if there’s low voter turnout” is every bit as fantastical as “Labour might lurch left once in power”
Fair enough - I've got lost in this one a bit and the point shouldn't apply to the Tories as they usually retain power on the back of an apathetic electorate.
My point I suppose is that Labour is reliant on the same circumstances so what's the point of them? No real alternatives offered but just waiting for enough of the electorate to switch horses to give them a quick go at running the country whilst the Tories have a short shower and come back looking a bit fresher. I wasn't a huge fan of Corbyn personally but at least he was offering an alternative vision.
My position is that a Labour government is the only starting point for more progressive politics. As starting points go, Starmer’s Labour will have a lot of room for improvement. If they don’t improve and this appetite for Maxx’yyyyys fresh socialist alternative actually exists, then that’s the time to focus on that movement, and to use it to either scare Labour into some better policies, or to replace Labour at the next election.
An alternative vision being offered is only as useful as the likelihood of it getting put into practice. 2019 made it pretty clear that right now, it’s not happening.
As a side note, I always thought it was a massive mistake for Labour to get manoeuvred into having a general election in 2019 anyway, which was always for Boris Johnson’s benefit, not that of the country
There's no sign of any changes from Labour - to the point that they're somewhat out of tune with the electorate on many issues including nationalizing utilities and increased tax on the wealthy. It'd come as no surprise to you that IMO, Labour is finished as a vehicle for socialism. Most of it's MP's made that clear in 2017 and 2019 and bar the SCG, they're not even pretending to be a socialist democratic party anymore. Which is why I'm firmly of the belief that the left needs to find an alternative vehicle rather than cling on like a limpet to the arse of a party that doesn't want them there.
You might be right on socialism being rejected in 2019 although I'm not so sure. I suspect it had more to do with Corbyn / Labour getting into a complete mess over it's Brexit policy (aided in no small way by Starmer) and Johnson turning the whole thing to his advantage by having an effective single-issue election. Brexit was always a Tory problem and Labour should've left it as their problem to sort without handing over an 80 seat majority.
How about we break some eggs and have an omelette instead?
I’m definitely up for breaking some eggs and having an omelette. Literally and metaphorically.
In the metaphor, the Tories are the sh*t sandwich on stale bread, Labour the sh*t sandwich on fresh bread, right?
So what does the egg represent? If you can tell me what I can do to make sure that I wake up with an omelette on the Friday after the election, I’m all in.
Why do we have to wait until election time to start breaking some eggs?
You have permission to break the literal egg now, and make me a literal omelette. Mmm tasty, much nicer than sh*t.
You also have permission to break the metaphorical egg now. Can you outline what you’re doing that is breaking the metaphorical egg, and when I get the omelette? Cos I’m hungry over here.
Fair enough - I've got lost in this one a bit and the point shouldn't apply to the Tories as they usually retain power on the back of an apathetic electorate.
My point I suppose is that Labour is reliant on the same circumstances so what's the point of them? No real alternatives offered but just waiting for enough of the electorate to switch horses to give them a quick go at running the country whilst the Tories have a short shower and come back looking a bit fresher. I wasn't a huge fan of Corbyn personally but at least he was offering an alternative vision.
My position is that a Labour government is the only starting point for more progressive politics. As starting points go, Starmer’s Labour will have a lot of room for improvement. If they don’t improve and this appetite for Maxx’yyyyys fresh socialist alternative actually exists, then that’s the time to focus on that movement, and to use it to either scare Labour into some better policies, or to replace Labour at the next election.
An alternative vision being offered is only as useful as the likelihood of it getting put into practice. 2019 made it pretty clear that right now, it’s not happening.
As a side note, I always thought it was a massive mistake for Labour to get manoeuvred into having a general election in 2019 anyway, which was always for Boris Johnson’s benefit, not that of the country
There's no sign of any changes from Labour - to the point that they're somewhat out of tune with the electorate on many issues including nationalizing utilities and increased tax on the wealthy. It'd come as no surprise to you that IMO, Labour is finished as a vehicle for socialism. Most of it's MP's made that clear in 2017 and 2019 and bar the SCG, they're not even pretending to be a socialist democratic party anymore. Which is why I'm firmly of the belief that the left needs to find an alternative vehicle rather than cling on like a limpet to the arse of a party that doesn't want them there.
You might be right on socialism being rejected in 2019 although I'm not so sure. I suspect it had more to do with Corbyn / Labour getting into a complete mess over it's Brexit policy (aided in no small way by Starmer) and Johnson turning the whole thing to his advantage. Brexit was always a Tory problem and Labour should've left it as their problem to sort without handing over an 80 seat majority.
Totally agree with you about Brexit, and I agree wholly that Labour should’ve left it to be a Tory problem. I’m also not averse to the idea that Brexit absolutely skewed those results and that a left wing party under different circumstances might thrive.
My issues though are these - in the months when there were rumours of that election, every left wing labour member/activist I know was scathing, and sometimes outright hostile to me, when I suggested that fighting the election before brexit was sorted would be a disaster. I was shouted down, told how unhelpful I was, how it was attitudes like THAT that might mean we lose. Those same people have given zero impression of actually reflecting on their positions (there was a LOT of “now is not the time for recriminations!” by people who were arrogantly dismissing any criticism of Labour’s electoral strategy.
In that context, I do feel that it’s legitimate to say that until there’something more convincing than “third time lucky”, I’m not going to enthusiastically assume that yep, there’s a pathway to power
My position is that a Labour government is the only starting point for more progressive politics. As starting points go, Starmer’s Labour will have a lot of room for improvement. If they don’t improve and this appetite for Maxx’yyyyys fresh socialist alternative actually exists, then that’s the time to focus on that movement, and to use it to either scare Labour into some better policies, or to replace Labour at the next election.
An alternative vision being offered is only as useful as the likelihood of it getting put into practice. 2019 made it pretty clear that right now, it’s not happening.
As a side note, I always thought it was a massive mistake for Labour to get manoeuvred into having a general election in 2019 anyway, which was always for Boris Johnson’s benefit, not that of the country
There's no sign of any changes from Labour - to the point that they're somewhat out of tune with the electorate on many issues including nationalizing utilities and increased tax on the wealthy. It'd come as no surprise to you that IMO, Labour is finished as a vehicle for socialism. Most of it's MP's made that clear in 2017 and 2019 and bar the SCG, they're not even pretending to be a socialist democratic party anymore. Which is why I'm firmly of the belief that the left needs to find an alternative vehicle rather than cling on like a limpet to the arse of a party that doesn't want them there.
You might be right on socialism being rejected in 2019 although I'm not so sure. I suspect it had more to do with Corbyn / Labour getting into a complete mess over it's Brexit policy (aided in no small way by Starmer) and Johnson turning the whole thing to his advantage. Brexit was always a Tory problem and Labour should've left it as their problem to sort without handing over an 80 seat majority.
Totally agree with you about Brexit, and I agree wholly that Labour should’ve left it to be a Tory problem. I’m also not averse to the idea that Brexit absolutely skewed those results and that a left wing party under different circumstances might thrive.
My issues though are these - in the months when there were rumours of that election, every left wing labour member/activist I know was scathing, and sometimes outright hostile to me, when I suggested that fighting the election before brexit was sorted would be a disaster. I was shouted down, told how unhelpful I was, how it was attitudes like THAT that might mean we lose. Those same people have given zero impression of actually reflecting on their positions (there was a LOT of “now is not the time for recriminations!” by people who were arrogantly dismissing any criticism of Labour’s electoral strategy.
In that context, I do feel that it’s legitimate to say that until there’something more convincing than “third time lucky”, I’m not going to enthusiastically assume that yep, there’s a pathway to power
Funny as the limited interaction i had at the time was quite opposite and was particularly pissed off when Corbyn agreed to the election as it was handing a victory to not only Boris but also his opponents within. My recollection is that the polls were fairly close up until mid 19 but once Boris was installed, there was an upward trajectory for the tories that couldn't be overcome. I think a lot of activists got caught up in the late run to (almost) parity in the 17 election and thought it would happen again.
One big difference was the 17 election allowed Corbyn the luxury of just saying "we''ll honour the referendum" without having to provide any more detail than that. By 2019, the whole thing had become toxic for everyone and Labour looked totally at sea on it.
Aside from the differing experiences, there’s nothing I disagree with there.
Overall, I feel like this is the most depressing time for politics I can remember, and I honestly just don’t see any credible alternative to sucking it up for now and going with the least bad option at the next general election and taking it from there
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:45 pm
Aside from the differing experiences, there’s nothing I disagree with there.
Overall, I feel like this is the most depressing time for politics I can remember, and I honestly just don’t see any credible alternative to sucking it up for now and going with the least bad option at the next general election and taking it from there
Quite right. Let's all give up and not take any inspiration whatsoever from the French workers.
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:45 pm
Aside from the differing experiences, there’s nothing I disagree with there.
Overall, I feel like this is the most depressing time for politics I can remember, and I honestly just don’t see any credible alternative to sucking it up for now and going with the least bad option at the next general election and taking it from there
Quite right. Let's all give up and not take any inspiration whatsoever from the French workers.
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:45 pm
Aside from the differing experiences, there’s nothing I disagree with there.
Overall, I feel like this is the most depressing time for politics I can remember, and I honestly just don’t see any credible alternative to sucking it up for now and going with the least bad option at the next general election and taking it from there
Quite right. Let's all give up and not take any inspiration whatsoever from the French workers.
What's happening in France, max? I've not been over there since last Saturday afternoon.
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:38 pm
Many thanks for the robust discussion just now but it does seem that the only way to get rid of the Tories at the next election is to Vote Labour.
There's always another way (don't listen to Dunnem).
I'm assuming that his lack of response is because he's gone for a long lunch with the Mayor of Perpignan to discuss how to access public funds to refurb his property there.
You jest - but that's actually a proposal. To help with smartening up some of the neighbourhoods, grants are available for external renovations. My application is in.
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:45 pm
Aside from the differing experiences, there’s nothing I disagree with there.
Overall, I feel like this is the most depressing time for politics I can remember, and I honestly just don’t see any credible alternative to sucking it up for now and going with the least bad option at the next general election and taking it from there
Quite right. Let's all give up and not take any inspiration whatsoever from the French workers.
Take inspiration from them. What’s your plan?
Every plan or journey begins with one small step. So let's leave behind the defeatism of accepting second best and expecting the Labour Party to do anything and take inspiration from workers actively struggling against capitalism.
Last edited by Max B Gold on Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There's always another way (don't listen to Dunnem).
I'm assuming that his lack of response is because he's gone for a long lunch with the Mayor of Perpignan to discuss how to access public funds to refurb his property there.
You jest - but that's actually a proposal. To help with smartening up some of the neighbourhoods, grants are available for external renovations. My application is in.
This is like playing table tennis? Is it my serve now? What point(s) do I need to be educated on Max?
Start with political economy and we will see how it goes from there. Anyway must dash have conference call with Doc re asbestosis claim for a family member.
Quite right. Let's all give up and not take any inspiration whatsoever from the French workers.
Take inspiration from them. What’s your plan?
Every plan or journey begins with one small step. So let's leave behind the defeatist of accepting second best and expecting the Labour Party to do anything and take inspiration from workers actively struggling against capitalism.
And do what exactly? And do what exactly on polling day?
Every plan or journey begins with one small step. So let's leave behind the defeatist of accepting second best and expecting the Labour Party to do anything and take inspiration from workers actively struggling against capitalism.
And do what exactly? And do what exactly on polling day?
You’re just waffling
Vote Labour on polling day. All my waffle isn't going to transform socialist politics overnight. But there is an alternative to voting Labour than eating freshly sliced sh*t spread sandwiches. That's all I'm saying.
It looks like you are frightened to take the step away from Labour and build for socialism. Is it the committee meetings and internal bickering that keeps you there?
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:24 pm
That’s not “an alternative to voting Labour”; that’s something people can do alongside voting in a general election.
So the question remains - within the framework in which we actually live, what is the better alternative to voting Labour in a general election?
I think you are missing the point. I've just said vote Labour at the next GE.
When I was in Leyton Labour Party there was a member who would assess the politics of the Labour candidate and compare it to the Lib Dem. And in the constituency he used to live he had voted for them because they were more on the Left than the Labour guy. You could do that other Left alternatives like the Greens are available.
The alternative is to build a viable Socialist Party with the trade unions as a base and hopefully a section of the "Left" PLP breaking off and off and joining.
There would then be a recruitment drive and a programme of political education and robust debate within the new organisation about goals and programmes and from there a lot of hard work to get established. There are no easy answers or shortcuts.
