Labour Watch

[CEB]

Once again, what is your democratic strategy for changing that?

[Admin]

Many thanks for the robust discussion just now but it does seem that the only way to get rid of the Tories at the next election is to Vote Labour.

Great. And replace them with their 2nd XI. The country is utterly f*cked, screaming out for progressive government and the best option is a supposed socialist democratic party that has spent the last 3 years punching leftwards, announcing various crackdowns and basically offering to be slightly more efficient Tories.

Sorry, but I'm not playing. To vote Labour would be accepting them in their current guise. They've spent 3 years telling people like me to f*** off. So I'm doing as they want and f*cking off. And don't even bother with the Tory enabler bollocks. If more voters were prepared to reject the current state of play by not voting for either party, both of them might finally consider doing something worthwhile with the power their given, rather than just having power for the sake of it.

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Good to see you're not prepared to engage with the point I'm making. What you centerists dads seem to want is for anyone on the left to basically be told to f*** off, and then come election time, just loyally stick a cross in a box for Labour again. Oh and once that's done, f*** off again please.

Not sure of your circumstances but due to the state of this country, my kids will be lucky to be able to rent a property - forget owning one. If my youngest even considered university, he'll be saddled with massive debt for something that was freely available to me.

The NHS in this country is stretched beyond breaking point and in dire need of funding and staff. My parents will be lucky to receive any care in their dotage unless I pay for it. Workers rights are being eroded on a constant basis. Your rights to protest are being eroded. And where's Labour in this? Nowhere. We have a shadow health secretary who's funded by private healthcare firms and that's acceptable? No plans to even raise CGT. No empathy for asylum seekers. No plan to reform society or even examine the causes of issues affecting the vast majority. Just more red meat, crackdowns and some union jacks.

And yet I'm the problem here? f*** off.

My only answer is a new political party in conjunction with the unions. I'm not going to claim to be bright enough to have answers beyond this - what I do know is that the current system is f*cked for all but an exclusive few.

[BoniO]

Great. And replace them with their 2nd XI. The country is utterly f*cked, screaming out for progressive government and the best option is a supposed socialist democratic party that has spent the last 3 years punching leftwards, announcing various crackdowns and basically offering to be slightly more efficient Tories.

Sorry, but I'm not playing. To vote Labour would be accepting them in their current guise. They've spent 3 years telling people like me to f*** off. So I'm doing as they want and f*cking off. And don't even bother with the Tory enabler bollocks. If more voters were prepared to reject the current state of play by not voting for either party, both of them might finally consider doing something worthwhile with the power their given, rather than just having power for the sake of it.

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Its not petty politics within the Labour Party that is at issue. It is the capture of economic, political and civil institutions by the prophets of neo liberal economics for the last 40 years. Your electoral arguments starts from the assumption that you seem happy with the economic system and a superficial argument follows on from that.

Nope. I've intimated that I'd welcome change, both in the behaviour and format of the Labour Party. The systemic changes you allude to, with regard to Economic policies sound interesting but will they be in place before the next election? If not, then as my biggest desire is to get rid of the Tories, I will vote Labour as the only viable method to get rid of the filth.

And yes, it is petty politics within the Labour Party that is at issue. Simplistically, because there are many positions between left and right, if the Right in the party sat down with the Left (and probably had their heads banged together) then maybe, just maybe they might find a core of beliefs/policies that they could agree on. They'd have to leave their ego's outside the meeting room to do so of course. If they could agree on a core of beliefs then then could work together (imagine....) from that base and actually act like a single Party - ooerr. There would be sh*t-loads they didn't agree on I'm sure and a need for compromise from both sides. They basically need to act like adults and not pre-pubescent schoolkids.

[BoniO]

Great. And replace them with their 2nd XI. The country is utterly f*cked, screaming out for progressive government and the best option is a supposed socialist democratic party that has spent the last 3 years punching leftwards, announcing various crackdowns and basically offering to be slightly more efficient Tories.

Sorry, but I'm not playing. To vote Labour would be accepting them in their current guise. They've spent 3 years telling people like me to f*** off. So I'm doing as they want and f*cking off. And don't even bother with the Tory enabler bollocks. If more voters were prepared to reject the current state of play by not voting for either party, both of them might finally consider doing something worthwhile with the power their given, rather than just having power for the sake of it.

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Good to see you're not prepared to engage with the point I'm making. What you centerists dads seem to want is for anyone on the left to basically be told to f*** off, and then come election time, just loyally stick a cross in a box for Labour again. Oh and once that's done, f*** off again please.

Not sure of your circumstances but due to the state of this country, my kids will be lucky to be able to rent a property - forget owning one. If my youngest even considered university, he'll be saddled with massive debt for something that was freely available to me.

The NHS in this country is stretched beyond breaking point and in dire need of funding and staff. My parents will be lucky to receive any care in their dotage unless I pay for it. Workers rights are being eroded on a constant basis. Your rights to protest are being eroded. And where's Labour in this? Nowhere. We have a shadow health secretary who's funded by private healthcare firms and that's acceptable? No plans to even raise CGT. No empathy for asylum seekers. No plan to reform society or even examine the causes of issues affecting the vast majority. Just more red meat, crackdowns and some union jacks.

And yet I'm the problem here? f*** off.

Hehe - I've been told to f*** off before mate. I'll live. I know about the shortcomings of the current parties thanks. I want these issues fixed too but they 100% won't be if we allow the Tories to remain in power. With Labour there is a chance we'll see improvement. But we need the left of the party to engage with the right and vice versa. Too many bruised egos affecting the whole of the Country. Pathetic.

I won't tell you to F*** off in return, as I prefer to argue a point.

[Admin]

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Its not petty politics within the Labour Party that is at issue. It is the capture of economic, political and civil institutions by the prophets of neo liberal economics for the last 40 years. Your electoral arguments starts from the assumption that you seem happy with the economic system and a superficial argument follows on from that.

Nope. I've intimated that I'd welcome change, both in the behaviour and format of the Labour Party. The systemic changes you allude to, with regard to Economic policies sound interesting but will they be in place before the next election? If not, then as my biggest desire is to get rid of the Tories, I will vote Labour as the only viable method to get rid of the filth.

And yes, it is petty politics within the Labour Party that is at issue. Simplistically, because there are many positions between left and right, if the Right in the party sat down with the Left (and probably had their heads banged together) then maybe, just maybe they might find a core of beliefs/policies that they could agree on. They'd have to leave their ego's outside the meeting room to do so of course. If they could agree on a core of beliefs then then could work together (imagine....) from that base and actually act like a single Party - ooerr. There would be sh*t-loads they didn't agree on I'm sure and a need for compromise from both sides. They basically need to act like adults and not pre-pubescent schoolkids.

You think the Labour party's issues are around petty politics? You seriously haven't noticed the non-stop purge of anyone with mildly left of centre tendencies? If Starmer could de-select the 30 odd SCG MP's, he'd do it tomorrow.

f*** me - you been spending time with Prez Business? Your patter is seriously reminiscent.

[CEB]

Great. And replace them with their 2nd XI. The country is utterly f*cked, screaming out for progressive government and the best option is a supposed socialist democratic party that has spent the last 3 years punching leftwards, announcing various crackdowns and basically offering to be slightly more efficient Tories.

Sorry, but I'm not playing. To vote Labour would be accepting them in their current guise. They've spent 3 years telling people like me to f*** off. So I'm doing as they want and f*cking off. And don't even bother with the Tory enabler bollocks. If more voters were prepared to reject the current state of play by not voting for either party, both of them might finally consider doing something worthwhile with the power their given, rather than just having power for the sake of it.

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Good to see you're not prepared to engage with the point I'm making. What you centerists dads seem to want is for anyone on the left to basically be told to f*** off, and then come election time, just loyally stick a cross in a box for Labour again. Oh and once that's done, f*** off again please.

Not sure of your circumstances but due to the state of this country, my kids will be lucky to be able to rent a property - forget owning one. If my youngest even considered university, he'll be saddled with massive debt for something that was freely available to me.

The NHS in this country is stretched beyond breaking point and in dire need of funding and staff. My parents will be lucky to receive any care in their dotage unless I pay for it. Workers rights are being eroded on a constant basis. Your rights to protest are being eroded. And where's Labour in this? Nowhere. We have a shadow health secretary who's funded by private healthcare firms and that's acceptable? No plans to even raise CGT. No empathy for asylum seekers. No plan to reform society or even examine the causes of issues affecting the vast majority. Just more red meat, crackdowns and some union jacks.

And yet I'm the problem here? f*** off.

My only answer is a new political party in conjunction with the unions. I'm not going to claim to be bright enough to have answers beyond this - what I do know is that the current system is f*cked for all but an exclusive few.

OK, can I jump in and try to engage on this?

There’s a crucial bit that you’re glossing over, and I think you’re too intelligent to not have spotted it yourself. It’s the bit where you say (paraphrasing) “if enough people withhold their vote, both parties might think twice/do more”.

You must know that that’s nonsense, and that the party that benefits from “people who want a better deal for societies most vulnerable” (which is the most likely cohort to withdraw their vote) is the Tories, and that they would welcome such a situation; the idea that it would give them pause is ludicrous.

For your point to be taken seriously, you have to be able to do more than that, because “Tories might have an epiphany if there’s low voter turnout” is every bit as fantastical as “Labour might lurch left once in power”

[BoniO]

Its not petty politics within the Labour Party that is at issue. It is the capture of economic, political and civil institutions by the prophets of neo liberal economics for the last 40 years. Your electoral arguments starts from the assumption that you seem happy with the economic system and a superficial argument follows on from that.

Nope. I've intimated that I'd welcome change, both in the behaviour and format of the Labour Party. The systemic changes you allude to, with regard to Economic policies sound interesting but will they be in place before the next election? If not, then as my biggest desire is to get rid of the Tories, I will vote Labour as the only viable method to get rid of the filth.

And yes, it is petty politics within the Labour Party that is at issue. Simplistically, because there are many positions between left and right, if the Right in the party sat down with the Left (and probably had their heads banged together) then maybe, just maybe they might find a core of beliefs/policies that they could agree on. They'd have to leave their ego's outside the meeting room to do so of course. If they could agree on a core of beliefs then then could work together (imagine....) from that base and actually act like a single Party - ooerr. There would be sh*t-loads they didn't agree on I'm sure and a need for compromise from both sides. They basically need to act like adults and not pre-pubescent schoolkids.

You think the Labour party's issues are around petty politics? You seriously haven't noticed the non-stop purge of anyone with mildly left of centre tendencies? If Starmer could de-select the 30 odd SCG MP's, he'd do it tomorrow.

f*** me - you been spending time with Prez Business? Your patter is seriously reminiscent.

Of course I've noticed the purges. I'm not as blinkered as you are. That's why I've said multiple times that the Left needs to work with the Right of the Party. As for the Prez Biz comment - oh dear, oh dear.

[Admin]

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Good to see you're not prepared to engage with the point I'm making. What you centerists dads seem to want is for anyone on the left to basically be told to f*** off, and then come election time, just loyally stick a cross in a box for Labour again. Oh and once that's done, f*** off again please.

Not sure of your circumstances but due to the state of this country, my kids will be lucky to be able to rent a property - forget owning one. If my youngest even considered university, he'll be saddled with massive debt for something that was freely available to me.

The NHS in this country is stretched beyond breaking point and in dire need of funding and staff. My parents will be lucky to receive any care in their dotage unless I pay for it. Workers rights are being eroded on a constant basis. Your rights to protest are being eroded. And where's Labour in this? Nowhere. We have a shadow health secretary who's funded by private healthcare firms and that's acceptable? No plans to even raise CGT. No empathy for asylum seekers. No plan to reform society or even examine the causes of issues affecting the vast majority. Just more red meat, crackdowns and some union jacks.

And yet I'm the problem here? f*** off.

Hehe - I've been told to f*** off before mate. I'll live. I know about the shortcomings of the current parties thanks. I want these issues fixed too but they 100% won't be if we allow the Tories to remain in power. With Labour there is a chance we'll see improvement. But we need the left of the party to engage with the right and vice versa. Too many bruised egos affecting the whole of the Country. Pathetic.

I won't tell you to F*** off in return, as I prefer to argue a point.

You are seriously now proving my point from my last post above. The left of the party have spent the last 3 years being purged. And yet the left should still engage?

[Max B Gold]

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Good to see you're not prepared to engage with the point I'm making. What you centerists dads seem to want is for anyone on the left to basically be told to f*** off, and then come election time, just loyally stick a cross in a box for Labour again. Oh and once that's done, f*** off again please.

Not sure of your circumstances but due to the state of this country, my kids will be lucky to be able to rent a property - forget owning one. If my youngest even considered university, he'll be saddled with massive debt for something that was freely available to me.

The NHS in this country is stretched beyond breaking point and in dire need of funding and staff. My parents will be lucky to receive any care in their dotage unless I pay for it. Workers rights are being eroded on a constant basis. Your rights to protest are being eroded. And where's Labour in this? Nowhere. We have a shadow health secretary who's funded by private healthcare firms and that's acceptable? No plans to even raise CGT. No empathy for asylum seekers. No plan to reform society or even examine the causes of issues affecting the vast majority. Just more red meat, crackdowns and some union jacks.

And yet I'm the problem here? f*** off.

Hehe - I've been told to f*** off before mate. I'll live. I know about the shortcomings of the current parties thanks. I want these issues fixed too but they 100% won't be if we allow the Tories to remain in power. With Labour there is a chance we'll see improvement. But we need the left of the party to engage with the right and vice versa. Too many bruised egos affecting the whole of the Country. Pathetic.

I won't tell you to F*** off in return, as I prefer to argue a point.

Oh come on reducing the political differences to personality flaws just adds an element of infantalism to your already superficial defence of Labour.

[Proposition Joe]

It's always the left need to grow up and work with the right, isn't it? Don't recall all the sensible people telling the Labour right to grow up and work with the Left when Corbyn and McDonnell held the whip hand and tried to implement their agenda. No, at that time it was 'sensible' for the Labour right to do their utmost to sabotage the whole thing for the greater good.

It's always one way.

[BoniO]

Good to see you're not prepared to engage with the point I'm making. What you centerists dads seem to want is for anyone on the left to basically be told to f*** off, and then come election time, just loyally stick a cross in a box for Labour again. Oh and once that's done, f*** off again please.

Not sure of your circumstances but due to the state of this country, my kids will be lucky to be able to rent a property - forget owning one. If my youngest even considered university, he'll be saddled with massive debt for something that was freely available to me.

The NHS in this country is stretched beyond breaking point and in dire need of funding and staff. My parents will be lucky to receive any care in their dotage unless I pay for it. Workers rights are being eroded on a constant basis. Your rights to protest are being eroded. And where's Labour in this? Nowhere. We have a shadow health secretary who's funded by private healthcare firms and that's acceptable? No plans to even raise CGT. No empathy for asylum seekers. No plan to reform society or even examine the causes of issues affecting the vast majority. Just more red meat, crackdowns and some union jacks.

And yet I'm the problem here? f*** off.

Hehe - I've been told to f*** off before mate. I'll live. I know about the shortcomings of the current parties thanks. I want these issues fixed too but they 100% won't be if we allow the Tories to remain in power. With Labour there is a chance we'll see improvement. But we need the left of the party to engage with the right and vice versa. Too many bruised egos affecting the whole of the Country. Pathetic.

I won't tell you to F*** off in return, as I prefer to argue a point.

You are seriously now proving my point from my last post above. The left of the party have spent the last 3 years being purged. And yet the left should still engage?

If the Left really can't engage, and can't articulate why they need to engage, with the Right, for the sake of the Labour Party and the Country, then why don't they break away and form their own party. Why stay with Labour?

Personally, I'd hate to see this as it would just divide voters even more and, most likely, ensure a succession of Tory governments.

[BoniO]

It's always the left need to grow up and work with the right, isn't it? Don't recall all the sensible people telling the Labour right to grow up and work with the Left when Corbyn and McDonnell held the whip hand and tried to implement their agenda. No, at that time it was 'sensible' for the Labour right to do their utmost to sabotage the whole thing for the greater good.

It's always one way.

Ah, diddums. Why are people always picking on me. I stated that both sides - Left and Right needed to engage. Grow up.

[Proposition Joe]

It was a genuine question which I hoped might prompt some reflection, but no, just a Centrist Dad 101 response.

[Admin]

Hehe - I've been told to f*** off before mate. I'll live. I know about the shortcomings of the current parties thanks. I want these issues fixed too but they 100% won't be if we allow the Tories to remain in power. With Labour there is a chance we'll see improvement. But we need the left of the party to engage with the right and vice versa. Too many bruised egos affecting the whole of the Country. Pathetic.

I won't tell you to F*** off in return, as I prefer to argue a point.

You are seriously now proving my point from my last post above. The left of the party have spent the last 3 years being purged. And yet the left should still engage?

If the Left really can't engage, and can't articulate why they need to engage, with the Right, for the sake of the Labour Party and the Country, then why don't they break away and form their own party. Why stay with Labour?

Personally, I'd hate to see this as it would just divide voters even more and, most likely, ensure a succession of Tory governments.

Read my post above - the only option for the left realistically is for a new political vehicle in conjunction with the unions and perhaps present a proper opposition rather than a B team option offering no real change.

Of course it won't take place before the next election but it needs to start somewhere. Labour at the moment are offering nothing more than a slight brake on the decline in living standards and basic rights for the vast majority.

By your thinking, Labour and the trade union movement would never have existed. We'd still be voting Tory or Liberal.

[BoniO]

Good to see you're not prepared to engage with the point I'm making. What you centerists dads seem to want is for anyone on the left to basically be told to f*** off, and then come election time, just loyally stick a cross in a box for Labour again. Oh and once that's done, f*** off again please.

Not sure of your circumstances but due to the state of this country, my kids will be lucky to be able to rent a property - forget owning one. If my youngest even considered university, he'll be saddled with massive debt for something that was freely available to me.

The NHS in this country is stretched beyond breaking point and in dire need of funding and staff. My parents will be lucky to receive any care in their dotage unless I pay for it. Workers rights are being eroded on a constant basis. Your rights to protest are being eroded. And where's Labour in this? Nowhere. We have a shadow health secretary who's funded by private healthcare firms and that's acceptable? No plans to even raise CGT. No empathy for asylum seekers. No plan to reform society or even examine the causes of issues affecting the vast majority. Just more red meat, crackdowns and some union jacks.

And yet I'm the problem here? f*** off.

Hehe - I've been told to f*** off before mate. I'll live. I know about the shortcomings of the current parties thanks. I want these issues fixed too but they 100% won't be if we allow the Tories to remain in power. With Labour there is a chance we'll see improvement. But we need the left of the party to engage with the right and vice versa. Too many bruised egos affecting the whole of the Country. Pathetic.

I won't tell you to F*** off in return, as I prefer to argue a point.

Oh come on reducing the political differences to personality flaws just adds an element of infantalism to your already superficial defence of Labour.

Possibly Max. But so much of the issues within the Labour Party are because tossers - from Right and Left - are entrenched and incapable of listening to or caring about anything other than their own outlook. There needs to be compromise and a common aim for the whole Party. Unless their personal goals are more important of course. Even with all this sh*t within the Labour Party, they'll still get my vote, such is the cancer that is the Tory Party.

[BoniO]

It was a genuine question which I hoped might prompt some reflection, but no, just a Centrist Dad 101 response.

My response clearly shows that I disagree and it's the fault of both sides - which I've stated many times.

[CEB]

It's always the left need to grow up and work with the right, isn't it? Don't recall all the sensible people telling the Labour right to grow up and work with the Left when Corbyn and McDonnell held the whip hand and tried to implement their agenda. No, at that time it was 'sensible' for the Labour right to do their utmost to sabotage the whole thing for the greater good.

It's always one way.

Can I just correct you there by pointing out that during Corbyn’s leadership (who I voted for twice to be leader of Labour, and voted for Labour in both the elections he fought) I was absolutely arguing against anyone on the centre or right of Labour who was undermining Corbyn, who was defeatist about prospects, and I have a track record of being vocally and combatively left wing.
So you must at least accept that there are some people who are advocating for the “slightly lesser of two evils”are doing so in good faith from a starting position of ideally wanting a left wing government, but believing that it’s not possible right now, and in the mean time it’s better to get the Tories out and then not let the Labour right be too comfortable?

[Max B Gold]

Hehe - I've been told to f*** off before mate. I'll live. I know about the shortcomings of the current parties thanks. I want these issues fixed too but they 100% won't be if we allow the Tories to remain in power. With Labour there is a chance we'll see improvement. But we need the left of the party to engage with the right and vice versa. Too many bruised egos affecting the whole of the Country. Pathetic.

I won't tell you to F*** off in return, as I prefer to argue a point.

You are seriously now proving my point from my last post above. The left of the party have spent the last 3 years being purged. And yet the left should still engage?

If the Left really can't engage, and can't articulate why they need to engage, with the Right, for the sake of the Labour Party and the Country, then why don't they break away and form their own party. Why stay with Labour?

Personally, I'd hate to see this as it would just divide voters even more and, most likely, ensure a succession of Tory governments.

You shouldn't assume that a divided vote necessarily returns the Tories and that is even before the case for PR is made.

The Labour Party does not represent the interests of working people and more people are realising it.

In Scotland many Labour stalwarts realised this and moved their vote to a slightly progressive neo liberal alternative in the SNP. That was a ground breaking shift.

There is no reason to believe that a new socialist party in England would not achieve similar electoral success in "heartlands"

[Max B Gold]

Hehe - I've been told to f*** off before mate. I'll live. I know about the shortcomings of the current parties thanks. I want these issues fixed too but they 100% won't be if we allow the Tories to remain in power. With Labour there is a chance we'll see improvement. But we need the left of the party to engage with the right and vice versa. Too many bruised egos affecting the whole of the Country. Pathetic.

I won't tell you to F*** off in return, as I prefer to argue a point.

Oh come on reducing the political differences to personality flaws just adds an element of infantalism to your already superficial defence of Labour.

Possibly Max. But so much of the issues within the Labour Party are because tossers - from Right and Left - are entrenched and incapable of listening to or caring about anything other than their own outlook. There needs to be compromise and a common aim for the whole Party. Unless their personal goals are more important of course. Even with all this sh*t within the Labour Party, they'll still get my vote, such is the cancer that is the Tory Party.

Again you reduce it to personalities. That is not what is going on. Its a political fight over material interests. The Left advocating improvements for workers and the Labour right protecting the interests of the capitalists and in their minds the "Nation"

[BoniO]

You are seriously now proving my point from my last post above. The left of the party have spent the last 3 years being purged. And yet the left should still engage?

If the Left really can't engage, and can't articulate why they need to engage, with the Right, for the sake of the Labour Party and the Country, then why don't they break away and form their own party. Why stay with Labour?

Personally, I'd hate to see this as it would just divide voters even more and, most likely, ensure a succession of Tory governments.

You shouldn't assume that a divided vote necessarily returns the Tories and that is even before the case for PR is made.

The Labour Party does not represent the interests of working people and more people are realising it.

In Scotland many Labour stalwarts realised this and moved their vote to a slightly progressive neo liberal alternative in the SNP. That was a ground breaking shift.

There is no reason to believe that a new socialist party in England would not achieve simular electoral success in "heartlands"

I sincerely hope that you're correct, I really do.

[Admin]

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Good to see you're not prepared to engage with the point I'm making. What you centerists dads seem to want is for anyone on the left to basically be told to f*** off, and then come election time, just loyally stick a cross in a box for Labour again. Oh and once that's done, f*** off again please.

Not sure of your circumstances but due to the state of this country, my kids will be lucky to be able to rent a property - forget owning one. If my youngest even considered university, he'll be saddled with massive debt for something that was freely available to me.

The NHS in this country is stretched beyond breaking point and in dire need of funding and staff. My parents will be lucky to receive any care in their dotage unless I pay for it. Workers rights are being eroded on a constant basis. Your rights to protest are being eroded. And where's Labour in this? Nowhere. We have a shadow health secretary who's funded by private healthcare firms and that's acceptable? No plans to even raise CGT. No empathy for asylum seekers. No plan to reform society or even examine the causes of issues affecting the vast majority. Just more red meat, crackdowns and some union jacks.

And yet I'm the problem here? f*** off.

My only answer is a new political party in conjunction with the unions. I'm not going to claim to be bright enough to have answers beyond this - what I do know is that the current system is f*cked for all but an exclusive few.

OK, can I jump in and try to engage on this?

There’s a crucial bit that you’re glossing over, and I think you’re too intelligent to not have spotted it yourself. It’s the bit where you say (paraphrasing) “if enough people withhold their vote, both parties might think twice/do more”.

You must know that that’s nonsense, and that the party that benefits from “people who want a better deal for societies most vulnerable” (which is the most likely cohort to withdraw their vote) is the Tories, and that they would welcome such a situation; the idea that it would give them pause is ludicrous.

For your point to be taken seriously, you have to be able to do more than that, because “Tories might have an epiphany if there’s low voter turnout” is every bit as fantastical as “Labour might lurch left once in power”

Fair enough - I've got lost in this one a bit and the point shouldn't apply to the Tories as they usually retain power on the back of an apathetic electorate.

My point I suppose is that Labour is reliant on the same circumstances so what's the point of them? No real alternatives offered but just waiting for enough of the electorate to switch horses to give them a quick go at running the country whilst the Tories have a short shower and come back looking a bit fresher. I wasn't a huge fan of Corbyn personally but at least he was offering an alternative vision.

[BoniO]

Oh come on reducing the political differences to personality flaws just adds an element of infantalism to your already superficial defence of Labour.

Possibly Max. But so much of the issues within the Labour Party are because tossers - from Right and Left - are entrenched and incapable of listening to or caring about anything other than their own outlook. There needs to be compromise and a common aim for the whole Party. Unless their personal goals are more important of course. Even with all this sh*t within the Labour Party, they'll still get my vote, such is the cancer that is the Tory Party.

Again you reduce it to personalities. That is not what is going on. Its a political fight over material interests. The Left advocating improvements for workers and the Labour right protecting the interests of the capitalists and in their minds the "Nation"

My view is that it's the clash of personalities, as well as dogma, that divides the Labour Party. My wish is that common ground could be reached which would enable the Labour Party to fight for what it was formed to fight for. Workers rights and a more caring Society.

[Max B Gold]

Possibly Max. But so much of the issues within the Labour Party are because tossers - from Right and Left - are entrenched and incapable of listening to or caring about anything other than their own outlook. There needs to be compromise and a common aim for the whole Party. Unless their personal goals are more important of course. Even with all this sh*t within the Labour Party, they'll still get my vote, such is the cancer that is the Tory Party.

Again you reduce it to personalities. That is not what is going on. Its a political fight over material interests. The Left advocating improvements for workers and the Labour right protecting the interests of the capitalists and in their minds the "Nation"

My view is that it's the clash of personalities, as well as dogma, that divides the Labour Party. My wish is that common ground could be reached which would enable the Labour Party to fight for what it was formed to fight for. Workers rights and a more caring Society.

Then you are in dire need of a political education.

[BoniO]

Again you reduce it to personalities. That is not what is going on. Its a political fight over material interests. The Left advocating improvements for workers and the Labour right protecting the interests of the capitalists and in their minds the "Nation"

My view is that it's the clash of personalities, as well as dogma, that divides the Labour Party. My wish is that common ground could be reached which would enable the Labour Party to fight for what it was formed to fight for. Workers rights and a more caring Society.

Then you are in dire need of a political education.

Haha - I'll pass thanks.

[Max B Gold]

My view is that it's the clash of personalities, as well as dogma, that divides the Labour Party. My wish is that common ground could be reached which would enable the Labour Party to fight for what it was formed to fight for. Workers rights and a more caring Society.

Then you are in dire need of a political education.

Haha - I'll pass thanks.

I know you have.