Labour Watch

[CEB]

“Not voting for either might be a start”

Can you show your working there as to what that would achieve?

[Max B Gold]

I’m up for being convinced that withholding a vote from an uninspiring, safe Labour MP is a better use of the vote, but I’m not quite there yet. I have to admit that the thing most likely to make me not vote for her is the cringey social media persona more than any policy

You have every reason to vote for her because you are both on the same page when it comes to trans oppression. No need for the burger and pint to reward yourself.

[BoniO]

I think there's something to be said for those in safe Labour seats to use their vote differently (including not voting). But if you live in a seat which Labour could lose or is within a shout of winning, then the calculus changes.

As for the workers, they need to get a grip, join a union, and start adding to the victories already being achieved.

Fine. All this will be set up in time so that we can be rid of the Tories at the next election? If not, maybe we should vote Labour then?

[Max B Gold]

And you think I don't recognise the choice?

So what's the alternative? Seriously. What other path is there, other than voting Labour, to get rid of the Tories.
'

The alternative? Not voting for either might be a start. Maybe if SKS and the other faceless tossers in the shadow cabinet start understanding they can't rely on just not being the Tories, they might start offering some decent alternative policies.

I don't think Labour's victory is a given yet - we're 18 months away from the election and already the poll lead is starting to slowly disappear. Perhaps that's because there's great swathes of the country needing an alternative government with policies that might affect their lives and are now realizing there's nothing on offer for them. Why trust Labour when the supposed government in waiting has ditched almost every policy it's leader supposedly stood for.

Starmer's biggest danger is voter apathy. And he's creating it.

Not voting would just allow the Tories another 4 years. Great alternative.

It's not great but it's a short term view. If we are ever going to get real change we need a new socialist party based on the trade unions with an agenda to advance the interests of workers and not corporations, careers or Israel.

[CEB]

I’m up for being convinced that withholding a vote from an uninspiring, safe Labour MP is a better use of the vote, but I’m not quite there yet. I have to admit that the thing most likely to make me not vote for her is the cringey social media persona more than any policy

You have every reason to vote for her because you are both on the same page when it comes to trans oppression. No need for the burger and pint to reward yourself.

I have no idea what on Earth you’re on about.

[Admin]

And you think I don't recognise the choice?

So what's the alternative? Seriously. What other path is there, other than voting Labour, to get rid of the Tories.
'

The alternative? Not voting for either might be a start. Maybe if SKS and the other faceless tossers in the shadow cabinet start understanding they can't rely on just not being the Tories, they might start offering some decent alternative policies.

I don't think Labour's victory is a given yet - we're 18 months away from the election and already the poll lead is starting to slowly disappear. Perhaps that's because there's great swathes of the country needing an alternative government with policies that might affect their lives and are now realizing there's nothing on offer for them. Why trust Labour when the supposed government in waiting has ditched almost every policy it's leader supposedly stood for.

Starmer's biggest danger is voter apathy. And he's creating it.

Not voting would just allow the Tories another 4 years. Great alternative.

Where did I say I wasn't voting? Thanks to the vagaries of FPTP, I live in such a Tory safe seat that my vote is meaningless anyway.

I will be voting but call me a silly idealist, but I can't find much point in voting for 2 parties that are going to do nothing for those in most need. I'm not going to give any support to those who are going to spend the next 18 months doing nothing but announcing crackdowns and flag-f*cking in order to appeal the most to racists in marginal seats. Maybe if the majority took this route rather than just holding their nose and accepting another 5 years of f*** all, politicians might react and y'know not just rely on a few million people trudging down and voting for them because they look just a little bit less sh*t.

As CEB has said elsewhere, do you really think Starmer's going to rip his mask off when entering into No 10 and turn into Tony Benn or Michael Foot? The only reason he's getting a fairly easy ride at the moment is because he presents no threat whatsoever to any vested interest. Same as Blair didn't either. He'll get 5 years whilst the Tories de-toxify, be allowed to tinker round the edges and then be consigned to political history.

In the meantime, things will become more sh*t for those in most need - there's never been a bigger need for the unions who are the only people standing up against the political class. A new political vehicle is needed in conjunction with the unions - they should now just not affiliate and pull their funding. SKS like Blair has no interest in them.

[Max B Gold]

I’m up for being convinced that withholding a vote from an uninspiring, safe Labour MP is a better use of the vote, but I’m not quite there yet. I have to admit that the thing most likely to make me not vote for her is the cringey social media persona more than any policy

You have every reason to vote for her because you are both on the same page when it comes to trans oppression. No need for the burger and pint to reward yourself.

I have no idea what on Earth you’re on about.

Creasy and you holding your nose when voting for her.

[Proposition Joe]

Not relishing going in to bat for Creasy but she's not notably anti-trans is she?

[Dunners]

I think she's been smart enough to keep out of that.

[CEB]

I mean, I’m also not “anti trans” but Stella is pretty much all in on trans rights https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/05/28/ ... jenkinson/

[Mick McQuaid]

We were so close and now you've gone and got distracted.

[Dunners]

I think there's something to be said for those in safe Labour seats to use their vote differently (including not voting). But if you live in a seat which Labour could lose or is within a shout of winning, then the calculus changes.

As for the workers, they need to get a grip, join a union, and start adding to the victories already being achieved.

Fine. All this will be set up in time so that we can be rid of the Tories at the next election? If not, maybe we should vote Labour then?

Oh, alright then.

However, down here in Perpignan our local mayor is from the National Rally. So SKS is a raging purple-haired left in comparison.

[BoniO]

The alternative? Not voting for either might be a start. Maybe if SKS and the other faceless tossers in the shadow cabinet start understanding they can't rely on just not being the Tories, they might start offering some decent alternative policies.

I don't think Labour's victory is a given yet - we're 18 months away from the election and already the poll lead is starting to slowly disappear. Perhaps that's because there's great swathes of the country needing an alternative government with policies that might affect their lives and are now realizing there's nothing on offer for them. Why trust Labour when the supposed government in waiting has ditched almost every policy it's leader supposedly stood for.

Starmer's biggest danger is voter apathy. And he's creating it.

Not voting would just allow the Tories another 4 years. Great alternative.

Where did I say I wasn't voting? Thanks to the vagaries of FPTP, I live in such a Tory safe seat that my vote is meaningless anyway.

I will be voting but call me a silly idealist, but I can't find much point in voting for 2 parties that are going to do nothing for those in most need. I'm not going to give any support to those who are going to spend the next 18 months doing nothing but announcing crackdowns and flag-f*cking in order to appeal the most to racists in marginal seats. Maybe if the majority took this route rather than just holding their nose and accepting another 5 years of f*** all, politicians might react and y'know not just rely on a few million people trudging down and voting for them because they look just a little bit less sh*t.

As CEB has said elsewhere, do you really think Starmer's going to rip his mask off when entering into No 10 and turn into Tony Benn or Michael Foot? The only reason he's getting a fairly easy ride at the moment is because he presents no threat whatsoever to any vested interest. Same as Blair didn't either. He'll get 5 years whilst the Tories de-toxify, tinker round the edges and then be consigned to political history.

In the meantime, things will become more sh*t for those in most need - there's never been a bigger need for the unions who are the only people standing up against the political class. A new political vehicle is needed in conjunction with the unions - they should now just not affiliate and pull their funding. SKS like Blair has no interest in them.

As per my reply to Max, I don't disagree with what you're saying, but it's not a won race yet to get rid of the Tories at the next election. Hence the need to vote Labour to get rid. If a Labour government turned out to be worse than the current crop I'd be amazed, would come on here to eat as much humble pie as you could all cook up, and become a water divining druid for the rest of my days. I think I'm safe.

[BoniO]

I think there's something to be said for those in safe Labour seats to use their vote differently (including not voting). But if you live in a seat which Labour could lose or is within a shout of winning, then the calculus changes.

As for the workers, they need to get a grip, join a union, and start adding to the victories already being achieved.

Fine. All this will be set up in time so that we can be rid of the Tories at the next election? If not, maybe we should vote Labour then?

Oh, alright then.

However, down here in Perpignan our local mayor is from the National Rally. So SKS is a raging purple-haired left in comparison.

They vote for Le Pen here in Provence aussi.

[Max B Gold]

Fine. All this will be set up in time so that we can be rid of the Tories at the next election? If not, maybe we should vote Labour then?

Oh, alright then.

However, down here in Perpignan our local mayor is from the National Rally. So SKS is a raging purple-haired left in comparison.

They vote for Le Pen here in Provence aussi.

All of them?

[BoniO]

Oh, alright then.

However, down here in Perpignan our local mayor is from the National Rally. So SKS is a raging purple-haired left in comparison.

They vote for Le Pen here in Provence aussi.

All of them?

Enough to get their rep elected unfortunately.

[BoniO]

Many thanks for the robust discussion just now but it does seem that the only way to get rid of the Tories at the next election is to Vote Labour.

[Max Fowler]

Not at all. Whilst the current Labour leadership team is far from perfect what is the alternative? Another term for the Tories.

I’d vote for just about any party, and any imperfect individual to remove the Tories. I really can’t be arsed with arguing about how far to the right Labour, in parts, has become. They are not the current Tory party, that’s the bottom line.

And there in a nutshell is Starmer's strategy in living form. Happy to accept the choice between a sh*t sandwich and a sh*t sandwich on slightly fresher bread.

No way Noo Noo Labour's getting my vote. SKS and young Wesley and all the other supposed grown ups have spent the last 2 years telling us on the left to f*ck off. Which is exactly what I'll do. I just wish the Socialist Campaign Group had a bit more backbone but they're proving themselves to be a fairly supine bunch as well.

If I was forced to eat a sh*t sandwich, I’d rather have it with nicer bread

How about we break some eggs and have an omelette instead?

[Max Fowler]

Many thanks for the robust discussion just now but it does seem that the only way to get rid of the Tories at the next election is to Vote Labour.

There's always another way (don't listen to Dunnem).

[Max B Gold]

Many thanks for the robust discussion just now but it does seem that the only way to get rid of the Tories at the next election is to Vote Labour.

There's always another way (don't listen to Dunnem).

I'm assuming that his lack of response is because he's gone for a long lunch with the Mayor of Perpignan to discuss how to access public funds to refurb his property there.

[Admin]

Many thanks for the robust discussion just now but it does seem that the only way to get rid of the Tories at the next election is to Vote Labour.

Great. And replace them with their 2nd XI. The country is utterly f*cked, screaming out for progressive government and the best option is a supposed socialist democratic party that has spent the last 3 years punching leftwards, announcing various crackdowns and basically offering to be slightly more efficient Tories.

Sorry, but I'm not playing. To vote Labour would be accepting them in their current guise. They've spent 3 years telling people like me to f*** off. So I'm doing as they want and f*cking off. And don't even bother with the Tory enabler bollocks. If more voters were prepared to reject the current state of play by not voting for either party, both of them might finally consider doing something worthwhile with the power their given, rather than just having power for the sake of it.

[BoniO]

Many thanks for the robust discussion just now but it does seem that the only way to get rid of the Tories at the next election is to Vote Labour.

Great. And replace them with their 2nd XI. The country is utterly f*cked, screaming out for progressive government and the best option is a supposed socialist democratic party that has spent the last 3 years punching leftwards, announcing various crackdowns and basically offering to be slightly more efficient Tories.

Sorry, but I'm not playing. To vote Labour would be accepting them in their current guise. They've spent 3 years telling people like me to f*** off. So I'm doing as they want and f*cking off. And don't even bother with the Tory enabler bollocks. If more voters were prepared to reject the current state of play by not voting for either party, both of them might finally consider doing something worthwhile with the power their given, rather than just having power for the sake of it.

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

[Max B Gold]

Many thanks for the robust discussion just now but it does seem that the only way to get rid of the Tories at the next election is to Vote Labour.

Great. And replace them with their 2nd XI. The country is utterly f*cked, screaming out for progressive government and the best option is a supposed socialist democratic party that has spent the last 3 years punching leftwards, announcing various crackdowns and basically offering to be slightly more efficient Tories.

Sorry, but I'm not playing. To vote Labour would be accepting them in their current guise. They've spent 3 years telling people like me to f*** off. So I'm doing as they want and f*cking off. And don't even bother with the Tory enabler bollocks. If more voters were prepared to reject the current state of play by not voting for either party, both of them might finally consider doing something worthwhile with the power their given, rather than just having power for the sake of it.

As you imply, parliament has limited "power". On foreign policy we do what the USA tells us. On economic and social issues the corporates, financiers call the shots. Parliamentary democracy is an illusion to protect the capitalist system and the power relations it creates.

[CEB]

And there in a nutshell is Starmer's strategy in living form. Happy to accept the choice between a sh*t sandwich and a sh*t sandwich on slightly fresher bread.

No way Noo Noo Labour's getting my vote. SKS and young Wesley and all the other supposed grown ups have spent the last 2 years telling us on the left to f*ck off. Which is exactly what I'll do. I just wish the Socialist Campaign Group had a bit more backbone but they're proving themselves to be a fairly supine bunch as well.

If I was forced to eat a sh*t sandwich, I’d rather have it with nicer bread

How about we break some eggs and have an omelette instead?

I’m definitely up for breaking some eggs and having an omelette. Literally and metaphorically.

In the metaphor, the Tories are the sh*t sandwich on stale bread, Labour the sh*t sandwich on fresh bread, right?

So what does the egg represent? If you can tell me what I can do to make sure that I wake up with an omelette on the Friday after the election, I’m all in.

[Max B Gold]

Many thanks for the robust discussion just now but it does seem that the only way to get rid of the Tories at the next election is to Vote Labour.

Great. And replace them with their 2nd XI. The country is utterly f*cked, screaming out for progressive government and the best option is a supposed socialist democratic party that has spent the last 3 years punching leftwards, announcing various crackdowns and basically offering to be slightly more efficient Tories.

Sorry, but I'm not playing. To vote Labour would be accepting them in their current guise. They've spent 3 years telling people like me to f*** off. So I'm doing as they want and f*cking off. And don't even bother with the Tory enabler bollocks. If more voters were prepared to reject the current state of play by not voting for either party, both of them might finally consider doing something worthwhile with the power their given, rather than just having power for the sake of it.

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Its not petty politics within the Labour Party that is at issue. It is the capture of economic, political and civil institutions by the prophets of neo liberal economics for the last 40 years. Your electoral arguments starts from the assumption that you seem happy with the economic system and a superficial argument follows on from that.