Labour Watch

[StillSpike]

Well… since Labour has turned the polls on their head and are on course for government, I’d say it’s fine to start talking about what you want a Starmer government to do, but maybe those of us who were adamant that Corbyn could win should hold off on the advice about strategy for getting into government for a few years yet

Isn't it really just the Tories who've turned the polls on their heads? They must be partially responsible - it's not all the brilliance of Labour.

I was being slightly facetious, and I think I’ve tried to convey that I’m not at all excited by Starmer’s Labour at the moment. But yes, absolutely the Tories’ implosion is a big factor, but that hasn’t happened in a vacuum, and Labour as a threat has played a part, too.

To be honest, I suspect that if 2019 hadn’t happpened, Covid may well have been the opportunity for the previous regime to really go for the tories and capture the mood of the nation. But I’m trying to just look at the reality, and for me, all I’m saying is that without a credible road map to power (eg one that deals with the context and electoral system as it is, not as we’d like it to be) then the “bit less sh*t” is better than “same amount of sh*t”, with the added bonus that in power, Labour might actually do more for society’s most vulnerable

I get the strategy, and understand it. It is still the case that no-one has won an election without the blessing (some might say anointing) of Mr R Murdoch Esq. and I realise that SKS et al are trying not to rub him, and their other kingmakers, up the wrong way.

The danger - and I think it's quite a big danger - is that if they position themselves too closely to the Tories - and frankly some of their positioning seems to be well to the right of general public sentiment, e.g support for RMT, nurses and other public sector workers - then there's the unwanted side effect of turning more people off the whole politics thing. The right wing absolutely love the sentiment "oh, they're all as bad as each other" - they profit from it - so to make it harder and harder for the public to distinguish your brand from the competition is a risky strategy, in my opinion.

To score an own goal, Labour don't have to persuade "natural" Labour voters, and young potential voters, to actually take the plunge and vote Tory or Lib Dem, they could score just as bad an own goal if they don't enthuse those groups enough to actually get to the polling station. Tories are making it harder and harder to vote, with their voter suppression legislation, anyway - I think the best way to counter that is not to make people see little point in the exercise.

[StillSpike]

Also, since I'm here, I think there's some moral imperative in how a party positions itself on some issues (yes, I know moral is a dirty word in politics)

To take just the areas of immigration and benefits as examples, it seems to me that the Labour front bench not only doesn't challenge the right wing tropes about what a crisis the small boats are, and how terrible immigration is, and how everyone on benefits is just lazy and taking the rest of us for a ride. By seeminglyu actively competing on how much tougher they can be on these "problems", they're actually amplifying that sort of sentiment. It's rapidly becoming received wisdom - because no-one is challenging it or even putting it into context.

It's only in the last few days in Liverpool that we've seen what happens when the notion that all immigrants are awful and illegal and out to take your white women takes hold unchallenged. It's not just those who propagate that sentiment that are at fault - those that don't challenge it haven't helped.

[CEB]

I don’t think those are bad points, but I think they’re points that are unlikely to not have occurred to the Labour leadership. My guess is that Starmer keeps on course for now, and it’s quite dull and not at all inspiring, but we get a surprisingly good manifesto. Not an amazing one by any means.

And where I agree with Max’yyyy and others is that politics doesn’t have to be all about the ballot box, and left wing political activism will have a better hearing under a Labour rather than Tory government

[CEB]

Also, since I'm here, I think there's some moral imperative in how a party positions itself on some issues (yes, I know moral is a dirty word in politics)

To take just the areas of immigration and benefits as examples, it seems to me that the Labour front bench not only doesn't challenge the right wing tropes about what a crisis the small boats are, and how terrible immigration is, and how everyone on benefits is just lazy and taking the rest of us for a ride. By seeminglyu actively competing on how much tougher they can be on these "problems", they're actually amplifying that sort of sentiment. It's rapidly becoming received wisdom - because no-one is challenging it or even putting it into context.

It's only in the last few days in Liverpool that we've seen what happens when the notion that all immigrants are awful and illegal and out to take your white women takes hold unchallenged. It's not just those who propagate that sentiment that are at fault - those that don't challenge it haven't helped.

Agree on this.

[tuffers#1]

Also, since I'm here, I think there's some moral imperative in how a party positions itself on some issues (yes, I know moral is a dirty word in politics)

To take just the areas of immigration and benefits as examples, it seems to me that the Labour front bench not only doesn't challenge the right wing tropes about what a crisis the small boats are, and how terrible immigration is, and how everyone on benefits is just lazy and taking the rest of us for a ride. By seeminglyu actively competing on how much tougher they can be on these "problems", they're actually amplifying that sort of sentiment. It's rapidly becoming received wisdom - because no-one is challenging it or even putting it into context.

It's only in the last few days in Liverpool that we've seen what happens when the notion that all immigrants are awful and illegal and out to take your white women takes hold unchallenged. It's not just those who propagate that sentiment that are at fault - those that don't challenge it haven't helped.

We live in a country full of Bigots, calling them out as suh loses votes. Brexit proved that !

[Stowaway]

So people will vote to keep with the sh*t sandwiches, only with slightly less sh*t in them, but won't vote for jam sandwiches?

Yes. People are generally quite thick. Any strategy needs to start from that assumption.

This cannot be emphasised enough. The electorate are, by and large, as thick as pigshit, and it’s been proven time and again. Millions of people voting for a party whose entire raison d’etre is the subjugation of those very people. And it works every f*cking time.

Pigshit. There’s no getting away from it.

[Max B Gold]

Well, the first thing I would’ve hoped for would’ve been a substantial period of reflection at what went wrong, which bits of what went wrong were to do with things that were foreseeable and resolvable, and then not going on the attack when some are disillusioned and instead waiting until they have something new and compelling to say before asserting that their way really is going to get us into power.

Perhaps acknowledge that after an electoral disaster, that yes, it’s absolutely better to get the tories out on a less radical platform and then try to press for more once we’re in govt?

Delusional last para there.

[Max B Gold]

Also, since I'm here, I think there's some moral imperative in how a party positions itself on some issues (yes, I know moral is a dirty word in politics)

To take just the areas of immigration and benefits as examples, it seems to me that the Labour front bench not only doesn't challenge the right wing tropes about what a crisis the small boats are, and how terrible immigration is, and how everyone on benefits is just lazy and taking the rest of us for a ride. By seeminglyu actively competing on how much tougher they can be on these "problems", they're actually amplifying that sort of sentiment. It's rapidly becoming received wisdom - because no-one is challenging it or even putting it into context.

It's only in the last few days in Liverpool that we've seen what happens when the notion that all immigrants are awful and illegal and out to take your white women takes hold unchallenged. It's not just those who propagate that sentiment that are at fault - those that don't challenge it haven't helped.

We live in a country full of Bigots, calling them out as suh loses votes. Brexit proved that !

The country is not full of bigots. There is a majority, reflected in the election results, who vote for more "progressive" ideas.

[Max B Gold]

So people will vote to keep with the sh*t sandwiches, only with slightly less sh*t in them, but won't vote for jam sandwiches?

Yes. People are generally quite thick. Any strategy needs to start from that assumption.

This cannot be emphasised enough. The electorate are, by and large, as thick as pigshit, and it’s been proven time and again. Millions of people voting for a party whose entire raison d’etre is the subjugation of those very people. And it works every f*cking time.

Pigshit. There’s no getting away from it.

That is why the Labour Party is a failed project for the emancipation of workers. They have failed to organise and educate members for too long and instead suck up to the rich and focus almost entirely on winning elections.

They win elections on platforms that deliver scraps from the rich man's table which as capitalism lurches from one crisis to the next they are taken away. NHS, benefits system, education, affordable transport, employment protection etc, etc

[Stowaway]

Well, the first thing I would’ve hoped for would’ve been a substantial period of reflection at what went wrong, which bits of what went wrong were to do with things that were foreseeable and resolvable, and then not going on the attack when some are disillusioned and instead waiting until they have something new and compelling to say before asserting that their way really is going to get us into power.

Perhaps acknowledge that after an electoral disaster, that yes, it’s absolutely better to get the tories out on a less radical platform and then try to press for more once we’re in govt?

IT WASNT A f*cking RADICAL PLATFORM FFS!

It was for some who seem content to be sold smaller sh*t sandwiches.

A platform so radical that it wouldn’t have raised a single eyebrow in the whole of Northern Europe.

It’s why we’re f*cked. Years of Tory media indoctrination have meant that anything remotely social is immediately seen as outright Communism.

[tuffers#1]

Also, since I'm here, I think there's some moral imperative in how a party positions itself on some issues (yes, I know moral is a dirty word in politics)

To take just the areas of immigration and benefits as examples, it seems to me that the Labour front bench not only doesn't challenge the right wing tropes about what a crisis the small boats are, and how terrible immigration is, and how everyone on benefits is just lazy and taking the rest of us for a ride. By seeminglyu actively competing on how much tougher they can be on these "problems", they're actually amplifying that sort of sentiment. It's rapidly becoming received wisdom - because no-one is challenging it or even putting it into context.

It's only in the last few days in Liverpool that we've seen what happens when the notion that all immigrants are awful and illegal and out to take your white women takes hold unchallenged. It's not just those who propagate that sentiment that are at fault - those that don't challenge it haven't helped.

We live in a country full of Bigots, calling them out as suh loses votes. Brexit proved that !

The country is not full of bigots. There is a majority, reflected in the election results, who vote for more "progressive" ideas.

Its a country full of bigots be it your lot my lot the welsh & any minority you care to mention !

[tuffers#1]

Yes. People are generally quite thick. Any strategy needs to start from that assumption.

This cannot be emphasised enough. The electorate are, by and large, as thick as pigshit, and it’s been proven time and again. Millions of people voting for a party whose entire raison d’etre is the subjugation of those very people. And it works every f*cking time.

Pigshit. There’s no getting away from it.

That is why the Labour Party is a failed project for the emancipation of workers. They have failed to organise and educate members for too long and instead suck up to the rich and focus almost entirely on winning elections.

They win elections on platforms that deliver scraps from the rich man's table which as capitalism lurches from one crisis to the next they are taken away. NHS, benefits system, education, affordable transport, employment protection etc, etc

That is the fault of the STUPID voting for the capitalist max &believing there simplistic propaganda .

[tuffers#1]

IT WASNT A f*cking RADICAL PLATFORM FFS!

It was for some who seem content to be sold smaller sh*t sandwiches.

A platform so radical that it wouldn’t have raised a single eyebrow in the whole of Northern Europe.

It’s why we’re f*cked. Years of Tory media indoctrination have meant that anything remotely social is immediately seen as outright Communism.

Exactly . Then they appoint another Tory to run the BBC

[Max B Gold]

Workers make history. Keith Stalin will be pleased

[Max Fowler]

Have you read all the guff on the labour website? I'm not going to copy and paste it all for you. I wouldn't even expect specifics until an election is imminent. Dont play dumb.

If you can source some of your claims i may have a look at them.

You really need to get over your(corbyn lefty loon labour) two previous electoral failures(thanks for gifting tories a decade of power) and just back the best you can get.

So not even one clear example? Thought not.

Labour are obviously not going to make any policy announcements yet. Nor are they ever going to bring about radical change. But a Labour administration will make a difference. Just the change of Labour Party staff occupying positions withing government departments will have an affect, despite the front-bench team.

But just one example of them saying something, anything, that differentiates them from the Tories is copied below from the Strikes thread. Unless I've missed the Tories talking about abolishing non-dom tax status, I'd say that is pretty different.

But if people really think that it won't make any difference which of the two main parties win at the next election, then so be it.

It's not that Labour and Starmer aren't left wing enough. It's that they're not left wing.

Exactly. Here's the right-wing fascist espousing his neo-liberal ideology again:

But even here in this example Dunnem has kindly provided, Sirkier is toeing the tory line that the NHS is in itself a problem needing reform, not that the problems we're now seeing it with are years and years of underfunding.

[Max Fowler]

Yes. People are generally quite thick. Any strategy needs to start from that assumption.

This cannot be emphasised enough. The electorate are, by and large, as thick as pigshit, and it’s been proven time and again. Millions of people voting for a party whose entire raison d’etre is the subjugation of those very people. And it works every f*cking time.

Pigshit. There’s no getting away from it.

That is why the Labour Party is a failed project for the emancipation of workers. They have failed to organise and educate members for too long and instead suck up to the rich and focus almost entirely on winning elections.

They win elections on platforms that deliver scraps from the rich man's table which as capitalism lurches from one crisis to the next they are taken away. NHS, benefits system, education, affordable transport, employment protection etc, etc

Capitalism isn't lurching from one crisis to another, capitalism is the crisis.

It's just a shame it's the only way that we can collectively organise ourselves.

[Dunners]

So not even one clear example? Thought not.

Labour are obviously not going to make any policy announcements yet. Nor are they ever going to bring about radical change. But a Labour administration will make a difference. Just the change of Labour Party staff occupying positions withing government departments will have an affect, despite the front-bench team.

But just one example of them saying something, anything, that differentiates them from the Tories is copied below from the Strikes thread. Unless I've missed the Tories talking about abolishing non-dom tax status, I'd say that is pretty different.

But if people really think that it won't make any difference which of the two main parties win at the next election, then so be it.

Exactly. Here's the right-wing fascist espousing his neo-liberal ideology again:

But even here in this example Dunnem has kindly provided, Sirkier is toeing the tory line that the NHS is in itself a problem needing reform, not that the problems we're now seeing it with are years and years of underfunding.

Yes, we know that.

[Max Fowler]

IT WASNT A f*cking RADICAL PLATFORM FFS!

It was for some who seem content to be sold smaller sh*t sandwiches.

A platform so radical that it wouldn’t have raised a single eyebrow in the whole of Northern Europe.

It’s why we’re f*cked. Years of Tory media indoctrination have meant that anything remotely social is immediately seen as outright Communism.

This shows how the tories have won, when ex-lefties have admitted defeat like this and consider free wi-fi for all and free bus passes for youngsters just too far out there.

[Dunners]

Here they are. Doing the Right's job for them.

At a vigil for the murdered teen, Brianna Ghey, they chant "f*ck Kier Starmer",

[BoniO]

The underfunding of the NHS is a national scandal that the Tories have presided over for nigh on 13 years. However, to think that this is the only problem is both simplistic and naive. The NHS, and all it’s clients, you and I, could benefit massively from reforms that returned the organisations focus back to the frontline - and valuing the input of clinicians rather than bean-counters and other management lackeys.

[Max Fowler]

Here they are. Doing the Right's job for them.

At a vigil for the murdered teen, Brianna Ghey, they chant "f*ck Kier Starmer",

Who is 'they'?

Whoever they are, they sound rightly angry - as well as a whole host of other emotions - about the murdered young girl.

[Max B Gold]

Here they are. Doing the Right's job for them.

At a vigil for the murdered teen, Brianna Ghey, they chant "f*ck Kier Starmer",

Sirkieth is the Right.

[Mistadobalina]

So not even one clear example? Thought not.

Labour are obviously not going to make any policy announcements yet. Nor are they ever going to bring about radical change. But a Labour administration will make a difference. Just the change of Labour Party staff occupying positions withing government departments will have an affect, despite the front-bench team.

But just one example of them saying something, anything, that differentiates them from the Tories is copied below from the Strikes thread. Unless I've missed the Tories talking about abolishing non-dom tax status, I'd say that is pretty different.

But if people really think that it won't make any difference which of the two main parties win at the next election, then so be it.

Exactly. Here's the right-wing fascist espousing his neo-liberal ideology again:

But even here in this example Dunnem has kindly provided, Sirkier is toeing the tory line that the NHS is in itself a problem needing reform, not that the problems we're now seeing it with are years and years of underfunding.

It's about undoing the terrible Lansley reforms no?.

The thinking that 'labour agree there is a problem, therefore they are the same as the Tories ' seems really simplistic to me. They agree that the NHS needs reform - but away from how Tories have buggered it by introducing horrendous amounts of middle management through forcing competitive markets. They agree that worklessness is a problem - but are saying you fix it by providing training and effective support.

If I'm being honest, those who demand purity are generally the ones who's lives don't get that heavily affected one way or the other if the Tories or Labour win. We talk about Corbyn motivating young people - it was a pretty homogeneous bunch of city living, white university educated types. Not exclusively and apologies to anyone who loved Corbyn who doesn't fall under that category. But I'm (just about) in the age group that was behind that period and it was driven by huge numbers of a 'type' who hold a lot of the people they claim to want to advance in complete contempt.

[Max B Gold]

Labour are obviously not going to make any policy announcements yet. Nor are they ever going to bring about radical change. But a Labour administration will make a difference. Just the change of Labour Party staff occupying positions withing government departments will have an affect, despite the front-bench team.

But just one example of them saying something, anything, that differentiates them from the Tories is copied below from the Strikes thread. Unless I've missed the Tories talking about abolishing non-dom tax status, I'd say that is pretty different.

But if people really think that it won't make any difference which of the two main parties win at the next election, then so be it.

But even here in this example Dunnem has kindly provided, Sirkier is toeing the tory line that the NHS is in itself a problem needing reform, not that the problems we're now seeing it with are years and years of underfunding.

It's about undoing the terrible Lansley reforms no?.

The thinking that 'labour agree there is a problem, therefore they are the same as the Tories ' seems really simplistic to me. They agree that the NHS needs reform - but away from how Tories have buggered it by introducing horrendous amounts of middle management through forcing competitive markets. They agree that worklessness is a problem - but are saying you fix it by providing training and effective support.

If I'm being honest, those who demand purity are generally the ones who's lives don't get that heavily affected one way or the other if the Tories or Labour win. We talk about Corbyn motivating young people - it was a pretty homogeneous bunch of city living, white university educated types. Not exclusively and apologies to anyone who loved Corbyn who doesn't fall under that category. But I'm (just about) in the age group that was behind that period and it was driven by huge numbers of a 'type' who hold a lot of the people they claim to want to advance in complete contempt.

Why do you hate educated urban white radicals so much? You need to let go of those negative feelings. We're all in this together.

[Max Fowler]

We talk about Corbyn motivating young people - it was a pretty homogeneous bunch of city living, white university educated types. Not exclusively and apologies to anyone who loved Corbyn who doesn't fall under that category. But I'm (just about) in the age group that was behind that period and it was driven by huge numbers of a 'type' who hold a lot of the people they claim to want to advance in complete contempt.

That seems a really simplistic, and wrong, assessment to me.