The trans debate

[Wally Banter]

Would love for anyone to make a case as to this not being completely insane

What's the context of that, out of curiosity?

[Max Fowler]

Would love for anyone to make a case as to this not being completely insane

What's the context of that, out of curiosity?

Uh oh'yyyyyy.

[Long slender neck]

[Dunners]

It just wouldn't be a loony-lefty 'issue' unless they all started turning on each other, would it?

[Gary's Big Brother]

It just wouldn't be a loony-lefty 'issue' unless they all started turning on each other, would it?

Apparently it's the replacement wedge issue for the far right in the UK because the anti abortion wedge doesn't work so well here.

It's certainly a complex and emotive issue which generates excessive amounts of hate.

[Wally Banter]

I'm ignorant of the issues here - but wondered if that book was being given specifically to kids experiencing gender dysphoria, for example, or if it was some other context.

Uh oh...I said 'gender dysphoria'.... which possibly means CEB will ask me to define what the 'female' gender is. Time for me to zip it.

[Max Fowler]

Time for me to zip it.

Make sure you don't catch your lady penis in your fly as you do.

[CEB]

I'm ignorant of the issues here - but wondered if that book was being given specifically to kids experiencing gender dysphoria, for example, or if it was some other context.

Uh oh...I said 'gender dysphoria'.... which possibly means CEB will ask me to define what the 'female' gender is. Time for me to zip it.

I’m assuming we’re in agreement that the assertion made in that book is untrue; that we both accept that doctors aren’t guessing whether an infant is a boy or a girl.

My question is which group of children do you think would benefit from being told that their body is irrelevant to whether they’re a boy or a girl; that in fact it’s their personality and interests that determine whether they are a boy or a girl.

I don’t think that either a cohort of children with gender dysphoria (the term I’d happily use for the experience of children experiencing discomfort with their sexed body) or a cohort of children who don’t have gender dysphoria benefit from being told an untruth as if it’s real, and definitely not where such untruths can reify and validate distress with a sexed body, in a context where all major trans organisations in the UK do not use that as a starting point for acceptance of one’s body, but as part of a pathway towards puberty blockers and hormonal intervention. Especially without any given criteria by which a child’s gender could be measured or identified, which leaves us only with gendered expectations of society.

The question of what a “female”,”girl” or “woman” gender might entail, or what a “male”, “boy” or “man” gender might entail, is pretty pertinent to a context where children are questioning whether they might be a boy despite doctors having guessed they were a girl, no?

As mentioned elsewhere, the important question to ask, to think about your approach on this is which of the following statements do you think is more positive for a child - including children distressed that their personality and interests are not considered appropriate to their sex - to hear
1: a girl is a child with a female body and any personality
2: girl is a child with a female personality and any body
?

I’d recommend reading the interim findings of the Cass report, or watching the newsnight item from a couple of years back about the whistleblowers at the Tavistock clinic

[SamiaStar]

This is a debate is such a trap it is probably less than 1% of the world population and it is made to seem more prevelant.

[Currywurst and Chips]

[CEB]

Worth remembering that in 21 pages, no one has actually articulated a defence of the sh*t being done in the name of trans activism, they’ve just rolled their eyes that people are talking about it..

[CEB]

Its a complex issue which I have differing opinions on, depending on the element.

If it was my child I would do my absolutely very best to support them and help them into being themselves. But I'd also try to do the very hard job of convincing them to wait. Your body and your mind changes so much before and after puberty. The things I wanted at 10 were very different at 16, as were the things i wanted at 23 are different today, ten years later. It's hard to understand that when you are young though and ultimately it's very difficult for anyone if they cant be themselves, no matter what age. I think you need to balance listening, understanding and your responsibility as a guardian.

That's the whole point of puberty blockers, which despite all the worried wailing, is the only treatment available to under 16's. They aren't completely without risk but it is a reversible treatment. The majority of children accessing the gender identity service don't receive any hormone treatment at all and the focus is on therapy and social transitioning if that's what they want.

From my already admitted limited experience, this thing about kids saying they were born in the wrong body is a misconception of how people present. Just going from the one person I know, everything about her behaviour presents as female and she's been like that all her life. It's not a passing fad, it's who she is.

“Everything about her behaviour presents as female”

And there we have it in a nutshell. Can’t believe I didn’t notice this before.
Mick McQuaid thinks “female” is a behaviour, rather than a sex. i wonder if he’d be intellectually honest enough to think about what he’s said here, and the implications of it. He has a male friend whose *behaviour* he sees as female.
So what is the nature of this behaviour?
What kind of behaviour indicates “female” to Brendan.

Funny, he nearly got me focused on his dripping out of a degree for being a stoner, but it turns out that it’s not biology that makes him believe trans women are women - it’s a sexist idea that there’s a certain way that women should behave if they’re to be women, and the toxic masculinity of seeing male people who display behaviour socially stereotyped *feminine* behaviour as being *not real men*

I wonder if he’s ever met a woman whose behaviour leads him to think she’s not female?

It’s honestly as hilarious as it is depressing that there are men on the left discussing “female behaviour” in men and not realising the gross misogyny of it.

[Story of O]

What exactly is "female behaviour"?

[Max B Gold]

It's even more depressing that there are men and women supposedly on the left willing to pick up and run with the hate filled wedge agenda of the far right.

[CEB]

Exactly. And that’s the crux of it.
Brendan, a heterosexual man who knows what a woman is when it comes to his sexual orientation, thinks that behaviour is sufficient to define female people.
I wonder what behaviour I could display that’d make him see me as female?
He won’t answer, of course, because he’s intelligent enough to see the last few posts and realise that, unlike his friend, he’s dropped a bollock here.

[CEB]

It's even more depressing that there are men and women supposedly on the left willing to pick up and run with the hate filled wedge agenda of the far right.

As I said above, “Worth remembering that in 21 pages, no one has actually articulated a defence of the sh*t being done in the name of trans activism, they’ve just rolled their eyes that people are talking about it..”

[Dunners]

What exactly is "female behaviour"?

It's when you do your hair up, put on a bit of lippy, slip on the high-heels and short skirt, and then strut your stuff down the street with a soundtrack of builders' wolf-whistles.

[CEB]

What exactly is "female behaviour"?

It's when you do your hair up, put on a bit of lippy, slip on the high-heels and short skirt, and then strut your stuff down the street with a soundtrack of builders' wolf-whistles.

I guarantee you Brendan won’t give a more substantial answer than that. At best he’ll leverage kindness again, and switch from his own assertion that he perceived behaviour as female, to saying that what he *really* meant was that “her” dysphoria was so intense that you’d have to be VERY unkind indeed to not agree with her that she’s a woman.

[CEB]

Luckily the madness is starting to crumble (though in Scotchland it’s getting worse) what with sensible decisions being made, like “no males in women’s sport” and “it might not actually be a great idea to medicalise gender non-conformity in kids and put them on a pathway to infertility”

The women who had to fight to be listened to and to get these issues thrashed out won’t be recognised though, instead even the people like those who were brazenly talking sh*t about puberty blockers on this very thread will just assume that it all worked itself out in the end. Honestly some of you f***ers should be ashamed.

[Max B Gold]

It's even more depressing that there are men and women supposedly on the left willing to pick up and run with the hate filled wedge agenda of the far right.

As I said above, “Worth remembering that in 21 pages, no one has actually articulated a defence of the sh*t being done in the name of trans activism, they’ve just rolled their eyes that people are talking about it..”

Straw man. From what I've read almost everyone on this thread (even me!!) has distanced themselves from the extremism of some trans activists but you continue to push the hate filled agenda of a far right wedge issue.

[CEB]

It's even more depressing that there are men and women supposedly on the left willing to pick up and run with the hate filled wedge agenda of the far right.

As I said above, “Worth remembering that in 21 pages, no one has actually articulated a defence of the sh*t being done in the name of trans activism, they’ve just rolled their eyes that people are talking about it..”

Straw man. From what I've read almost everyone on this thread (even me!!) has distanced themselves from the extremism of some trans activists but you continue to push the hate filled agenda of a far right wedge issue.

Oh, I didn’t see where you agreed that Stonewall and Mermaids and the Tavistock have all gone way beyond reasonable discourse and acknowledged that their positions and practice are indefensible. Perhaps you could point me to where you did?

Because the point, which you have missed, or avoided, is that the extremism in trans activism is *not* a rare case of some young activists being a bit OTT, but is in fact the mainstream form of trans activism, and which Stonewall is actively campaigning to bring into law and attempting to get ahead of the law in writing it into policy.
I’m sorry you can’t follow the argument on this, Max’yyyy, but you certainly haven’t done so up to now

[CEB]

So far as I can see, your one concession to “reason” is saying “women don’t have willies”, which, in case you weren’t aware, makes you an evil TERF in the eye of every mainstream trans organisation in the country, and, if you read carefully, means that you are casting doubt on Brendan’s friend’s no doubt otherwise watertight claim to be a woman

[Max B Gold]

Geezer you got WUMED to death in the opening exchanges by a character who was a cross between OFF and Alan Partridge.

Your main response amongst the pseudo science was to get personal and abusive. I'm not going to get involved with someone who is intolerant.

Also must dash - got a hire to Prestwick Airport thanks to Barron Mickey Lynch.

[Max B Gold]

So far as I can see, your one concession to “reason” is saying “women don’t have willies”, which, in case you weren’t aware, makes you an evil TERF in the eye of every mainstream trans organisation in the country, and, if you read carefully, means that you are casting doubt on Brendan’s friend’s no doubt otherwise watertight claim to be a woman

Ah got me on the old tadger rule again. Damn.

[CEB]

I remain bemused by your “wum” which seems to have amounted to “adopt a position you actually hold, more or less, and make up a lie to support it, have your points argued in good faith”. Reminds me of when Rio Ferdinand “merked” Gary Neville with a speeding ticket and Neville just dealt with it head on as if true and was like “yeah, send me the paperwork, I’m not giving you a photo to be let off, I’d rather pay the fine”