Meat Loaf 'seriously ill with COVID-19' before death

[Max B Gold]

Yes, obviously. A persons body is their own and whether you think a choice is stupid is irrelevant.

Where does personal choice begin and end in a Pandemic public health crisis?

Depends, I guess. If you believe in personal freedom, a public health crisis doesn’t come into it.

One of the only reasons I got two jabs was for the better of society, but that’s no one’s else responsibility.

Once pandemics end you’re left with less personal freedom and a slippery slope for the future. The mindset of rational people has understandably been scared into going against their morals and values.

So you're defending the right of anti vaxxers to spread disease?

We all have an individual responsibility to look after each other and in the current circumstances that means getting jabbed.

Whether we have lost more personal freedom because of the pandemic remains to be seen as most of the legislation constraining freedoms is temporary.

The far greater threat is from a proto fascist Tory government restricting voting and protest rights under cover of the pandemic not because of it.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Where does personal choice begin and end in a Pandemic public health crisis?

Depends, I guess. If you believe in personal freedom, a public health crisis doesn’t come into it.

One of the only reasons I got two jabs was for the better of society, but that’s no one’s else responsibility.

Once pandemics end you’re left with less personal freedom and a slippery slope for the future. The mindset of rational people has understandably been scared into going against their morals and values.

So you're defending the right of anti vaxxers to spread disease?

We all have an individual responsibility to look after each other and in the current circumstances that means getting jabbed.

Whether we have lost more personal freedom because of the pandemic remains to be seen as most of the legislation constraining freedoms is temporary.

The far greater threat is from a proto fascist Tory government restricting voting and protest rights under cover of the pandemic not because of it.

I’m defending the right of anyone to have a choice as to what happens to their body and what goes into it. I think that’s pretty basic we all would have more or less agreed with 2 years ago.

Agree with the last paragraph. But, turning people against each other, and vaxxing being the biggest currently one, makes that all easier.

[Sid Bishop]

Yes, obviously. A persons body is their own and whether you think a choice is stupid is irrelevant.

Where does personal choice begin and end in a Pandemic public health crisis?

Depends, I guess. If you believe in personal freedom, a public health crisis doesn’t come into it.

One of the only reasons I got two jabs was for the better of society, but that’s no one’s else responsibility.

Once pandemics end you’re left with less personal freedom and a slippery slope for the future. The mindset of rational people has understandably been scared into going against their morals and values.

And what about the personal freedom rights of those who are being prevented from getting hospital treatments for their own non Covid illnesses and diseases, held up by around the very high proportion of NHS ICU Covid patients who are not fully vaccinated against the Covid virus ? I wonder how many of these anti-vaxxers would refuse having the vaccine if they faced the prospect of non Covid treatment if they were proved to have refused the option of the vaccine ? Other countries are not such a ''Soft touch'' as the UK is. For just one instance, in Greece people over 60 years of age will soon have to start paying a 100 Euros a month fine if they have refused the vaccine, this is being enforced due to the large amount of un-vaccinated over 60s being admitted to hospital suffereing from Covid.

See below for just one example of this !

80% of patients admitted to Intensive Care Units in north east London in December not fully vaccinated'
https://northeastlondonccg.nhs.uk/news/ ... accinated/

Between 1 December and 31 December 2021, 124 patients with Covid-19 were admitted to intensive care units (ICU) across north east London (NEL). Of these, 80.6% (100) were not fully vaccinated (with 2 doses).

ICUs play an important role in hospitals, including looking after patients undergoing major surgery, for conditions such as cancer and heart disease.
Parjam Zolfaghari, a Consultant in Intensive Care Medicine and Anaesthesia at Barts Health NHS Trust said: “A considerable amount of resource is needed to treat patients in ICU, and those with Covid-19 are no exception. On average, a person with Covid-19 stays in an ICU bed for three times longer than ICU patients who are admitted with other conditions. The ongoing admission of patients with Covid-19 to critical care units is impacting on already stretched staff and, causing sustained pressure on services across north east London.”
He continues: “This clearly shows that getting two doses of a vaccine is the best way to reduce your chances of becoming seriously ill with Covid-19 and ending up in hospital. The individuals currently in our ICUs with Covid-19 are unlikely to have been admitted to intensive care if they had been fully vaccinated.”

[Sid Bishop]

Depends, I guess. If you believe in personal freedom, a public health crisis doesn’t come into it.

One of the only reasons I got two jabs was for the better of society, but that’s no one’s else responsibility.

Once pandemics end you’re left with less personal freedom and a slippery slope for the future. The mindset of rational people has understandably been scared into going against their morals and values.

So you're defending the right of anti vaxxers to spread disease?

We all have an individual responsibility to look after each other and in the current circumstances that means getting jabbed.

Whether we have lost more personal freedom because of the pandemic remains to be seen as most of the legislation constraining freedoms is temporary.

The far greater threat is from a proto fascist Tory government restricting voting and protest rights under cover of the pandemic not because of it.

I’m defending the right of anyone to have a choice as to what happens to their body and what goes into it. I think that’s pretty basic we all would have more or less agreed with 2 years ago.

Agree with the last paragraph. But, turning people against each other, and vaxxing being the biggest currently one, makes that all easier.

Agree !
Latest research into the Covid disease would suggest that non vaccinated are 20 times more likely to spread this disease than those who have already been vaccinated.

[Sid Bishop]

Depends, I guess. If you believe in personal freedom, a public health crisis doesn’t come into it.

One of the only reasons I got two jabs was for the better of society, but that’s no one’s else responsibility.

Once pandemics end you’re left with less personal freedom and a slippery slope for the future. The mindset of rational people has understandably been scared into going against their morals and values.

So you're defending the right of anti vaxxers to spread disease?

We all have an individual responsibility to look after each other and in the current circumstances that means getting jabbed.

Whether we have lost more personal freedom because of the pandemic remains to be seen as most of the legislation constraining freedoms is temporary.

The far greater threat is from a proto fascist Tory government restricting voting and protest rights under cover of the pandemic not because of it.

I’m defending the right of anyone to have a choice as to what happens to their body and what goes into it. I think that’s pretty basic we all would have more or less agreed with 2 years ago.

Agree with the last paragraph. But, turning people against each other, and vaxxing being the biggest currently one, makes that all easier.

So defending the rights of the unvaccinated to make others very ill by being more transmittable in their ability to spread Covid !

And what if all those refusing the vaccine were refused NHS hospital treatment if they get Covid ?

[George M]

Where does personal choice begin and end in a Pandemic public health crisis?

Depends, I guess. If you believe in personal freedom, a public health crisis doesn’t come into it.

One of the only reasons I got two jabs was for the better of society, but that’s no one’s else responsibility.

Once pandemics end you’re left with less personal freedom and a slippery slope for the future. The mindset of rational people has understandably been scared into going against their morals and values.

So you're defending the right of anti vaxxers to spread disease?

We all have an individual responsibility to look after each other and in the current circumstances that means getting jabbed.

Whether we have lost more personal freedom because of the pandemic remains to be seen as most of the legislation constraining freedoms is temporary.

The far greater threat is from a proto fascist Tory government restricting voting and protest rights under cover of the pandemic not because of it.

I got jabbed because I wanted to go on holiday

[tuffers#1]

Where does personal choice begin and end in a Pandemic public health crisis?

Depends, I guess. If you believe in personal freedom, a public health crisis doesn’t come into it.

One of the only reasons I got two jabs was for the better of society, but that’s no one’s else responsibility.

Once pandemics end you’re left with less personal freedom and a slippery slope for the future. The mindset of rational people has understandably been scared into going against their morals and values.

And what about the personal freedom rights of those who are being prevented from getting hospital treatments for their own non Covid illnesses and diseases, held up by around the very high proportion of NHS ICU Covid patients who are not fully vaccinated against the Covid virus ? I wonder how many of these anti-vaxxers would refuse having the vaccine if they faced the prospect of non Covid treatment if they were proved to have refused the option of the vaccine ? Other countries are not such a ''Soft touch'' as the UK is. For just one instance, in Greece people over 60 years of age will soon have to start paying a 100 Euros a month fine if they have refused the vaccine, this is being enforced due to the large amount of un-vaccinated over 60s being admitted to hospital suffereing from Covid.

See below for just one example of this !

80% of patients admitted to Intensive Care Units in north east London in December not fully vaccinated'
https://northeastlondonccg.nhs.uk/news/ ... accinated/

Between 1 December and 31 December 2021, 124 patients with Covid-19 were admitted to intensive care units (ICU) across north east London (NEL). Of these, 80.6% (100) were not fully vaccinated (with 2 doses).

ICUs play an important role in hospitals, including looking after patients undergoing major surgery, for conditions such as cancer and heart disease.
Parjam Zolfaghari, a Consultant in Intensive Care Medicine and Anaesthesia at Barts Health NHS Trust said: “A considerable amount of resource is needed to treat patients in ICU, and those with Covid-19 are no exception. On average, a person with Covid-19 stays in an ICU bed for three times longer than ICU patients who are admitted with other conditions. The ongoing admission of patients with Covid-19 to critical care units is impacting on already stretched staff and, causing sustained pressure on services across north east London.”
He continues: “This clearly shows that getting two doses of a vaccine is the best way to reduce your chances of becoming seriously ill with Covid-19 and ending up in hospital. The individuals currently in our ICUs with Covid-19 are unlikely to have been admitted to intensive care if they had been fully vaccinated.”

You know there are 70000 nhs staff unvaccinated dont you Sid ?

[Max B Gold]

Depends, I guess. If you believe in personal freedom, a public health crisis doesn’t come into it.

One of the only reasons I got two jabs was for the better of society, but that’s no one’s else responsibility.

Once pandemics end you’re left with less personal freedom and a slippery slope for the future. The mindset of rational people has understandably been scared into going against their morals and values.

So you're defending the right of anti vaxxers to spread disease?

We all have an individual responsibility to look after each other and in the current circumstances that means getting jabbed.

Whether we have lost more personal freedom because of the pandemic remains to be seen as most of the legislation constraining freedoms is temporary.

The far greater threat is from a proto fascist Tory government restricting voting and protest rights under cover of the pandemic not because of it.

I’m defending the right of anyone to have a choice as to what happens to their body and what goes into it. I think that’s pretty basic we all would have more or less agreed with 2 years ago.

Agree with the last paragraph. But, turning people against each other, and vaxxing being the biggest currently one, makes that all easier.

We didn't have a pandemic 2 years ago. Thinking has to change with the circumstances.

[Max B Gold]

Depends, I guess. If you believe in personal freedom, a public health crisis doesn’t come into it.

One of the only reasons I got two jabs was for the better of society, but that’s no one’s else responsibility.

Once pandemics end you’re left with less personal freedom and a slippery slope for the future. The mindset of rational people has understandably been scared into going against their morals and values.

And what about the personal freedom rights of those who are being prevented from getting hospital treatments for their own non Covid illnesses and diseases, held up by around the very high proportion of NHS ICU Covid patients who are not fully vaccinated against the Covid virus ? I wonder how many of these anti-vaxxers would refuse having the vaccine if they faced the prospect of non Covid treatment if they were proved to have refused the option of the vaccine ? Other countries are not such a ''Soft touch'' as the UK is. For just one instance, in Greece people over 60 years of age will soon have to start paying a 100 Euros a month fine if they have refused the vaccine, this is being enforced due to the large amount of un-vaccinated over 60s being admitted to hospital suffereing from Covid.

See below for just one example of this !

80% of patients admitted to Intensive Care Units in north east London in December not fully vaccinated'
https://northeastlondonccg.nhs.uk/news/ ... accinated/

Between 1 December and 31 December 2021, 124 patients with Covid-19 were admitted to intensive care units (ICU) across north east London (NEL). Of these, 80.6% (100) were not fully vaccinated (with 2 doses).

ICUs play an important role in hospitals, including looking after patients undergoing major surgery, for conditions such as cancer and heart disease.
Parjam Zolfaghari, a Consultant in Intensive Care Medicine and Anaesthesia at Barts Health NHS Trust said: “A considerable amount of resource is needed to treat patients in ICU, and those with Covid-19 are no exception. On average, a person with Covid-19 stays in an ICU bed for three times longer than ICU patients who are admitted with other conditions. The ongoing admission of patients with Covid-19 to critical care units is impacting on already stretched staff and, causing sustained pressure on services across north east London.”
He continues: “This clearly shows that getting two doses of a vaccine is the best way to reduce your chances of becoming seriously ill with Covid-19 and ending up in hospital. The individuals currently in our ICUs with Covid-19 are unlikely to have been admitted to intensive care if they had been fully vaccinated.”

You know there are 70000 nhs staff unvaccinated dont you Sid ?

Selfish, selfish people. They should know better.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

On that topic, good to see reports that the government might be rethinking that ridiculous mandate about nhs staff vaccination.

[Max B Gold]

On that topic, good to see reports that the government might be rethinking that ridiculous mandate about nhs staff vaccination.

Is this ridiculous too?

[Long slender neck]

On that topic, good to see reports that the government might be rethinking that ridiculous mandate about nhs staff vaccination.

Is the ridiculous thing not that we have nhs staff who are not vaccinated?

Sorry to hear you're anti vax.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

On that topic, good to see reports that the government might be rethinking that ridiculous mandate about nhs staff vaccination.

Is this ridiculous too?

Yep. Proper mad. Makes no sense

[Rich Tea Wellin]

On that topic, good to see reports that the government might be rethinking that ridiculous mandate about nhs staff vaccination.

Is the ridiculous thing not that we have nhs staff who are not vaccinated?

Sorry to hear you're anti vax.

An anti vaxxer with two doses floating around my body. Interesting argument and I suspect a lazy statement to throw out, rather than properly engaging in an argument. Learn from Max.

The ridiculous thing is that we now know two jabs are useless after about 90 days or so, or at least doesn’t give you full protection against omi.

As far as I know, the current rules are that you have to be double jabbed or you will lose your job.

Are we really risking losing valuable, hard working people who have probably seen some utterly horrible scenes in the last two years, and put the nhs under even more strain based on someone having two jabs 6 months ago that are no longer effective? Someone literally losing their job and livelihoods over something that isn’t stopping anyone get covid?

[Long slender neck]

Two jabs aren't useless, i think you've been misled there.

Scientists can only fight whats in front of them, it may be tricky to create a vaccine for a variant that hadnt yet emerged.

Getting jabbed is the right and responsible thing to do, those who haven't had it without good reason and working in healthcare deserve the sack

[tuffers#1]

And what about the personal freedom rights of those who are being prevented from getting hospital treatments for their own non Covid illnesses and diseases, held up by around the very high proportion of NHS ICU Covid patients who are not fully vaccinated against the Covid virus ? I wonder how many of these anti-vaxxers would refuse having the vaccine if they faced the prospect of non Covid treatment if they were proved to have refused the option of the vaccine ? Other countries are not such a ''Soft touch'' as the UK is. For just one instance, in Greece people over 60 years of age will soon have to start paying a 100 Euros a month fine if they have refused the vaccine, this is being enforced due to the large amount of un-vaccinated over 60s being admitted to hospital suffereing from Covid.

See below for just one example of this !

80% of patients admitted to Intensive Care Units in north east London in December not fully vaccinated'
https://northeastlondonccg.nhs.uk/news/ ... accinated/

Between 1 December and 31 December 2021, 124 patients with Covid-19 were admitted to intensive care units (ICU) across north east London (NEL). Of these, 80.6% (100) were not fully vaccinated (with 2 doses).

ICUs play an important role in hospitals, including looking after patients undergoing major surgery, for conditions such as cancer and heart disease.
Parjam Zolfaghari, a Consultant in Intensive Care Medicine and Anaesthesia at Barts Health NHS Trust said: “A considerable amount of resource is needed to treat patients in ICU, and those with Covid-19 are no exception. On average, a person with Covid-19 stays in an ICU bed for three times longer than ICU patients who are admitted with other conditions. The ongoing admission of patients with Covid-19 to critical care units is impacting on already stretched staff and, causing sustained pressure on services across north east London.”
He continues: “This clearly shows that getting two doses of a vaccine is the best way to reduce your chances of becoming seriously ill with Covid-19 and ending up in hospital. The individuals currently in our ICUs with Covid-19 are unlikely to have been admitted to intensive care if they had been fully vaccinated.”

You know there are 70000 nhs staff unvaccinated dont you Sid ?

Selfish, selfish people. They should know better.

That maybe so , however they are not breaking the law & is Bodge really going to sack 70000 on april 1st ? Hes a foool if he does .

[Sid Bishop]

You know there are 70000 nhs staff unvaccinated dont you Sid ?

Selfish, selfish people. They should know better.

That maybe so , however they are not breaking the law & is Bodge really going to sack 70000 on april 1st ? Hes a foool if he does .

Give them extra time then if really needed to, then replace them with doctors and nurses from Countries outside of the EU and UK. There are many who would love the chance to be able to work for the NHS.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Two jabs aren't useless, i think you've been misled there.

Scientists can only fight whats in front of them, it may be tricky to create a vaccine for a variant that hadnt yet emerged.

Getting jabbed is the right and responsible thing to do, those who haven't had it without good reason and working in healthcare deserve the sack

Yeah all those nhs workers, properly selfish.

[Stowaway]

As I’ve mentioned before, my ex is the clinical manager of the biggest ICU in London (and she’s a nurse, not an office type. She runs the place while on the ward, wearing scrubs like everyone else). Her rule is that everyone on her unit has to be double vaccinated and boosted. No exceptions. If you’re not, you don’t even come into the unit. That includes relatives, porters, cleaners, doctors and consultants.

Is it legal? I don’t know. But it’s her rule. She’s had literally hundreds of patients die over the last two years, and several staff, and she takes personal responsibility for each and every one. I make her right.

[BoniO]

Depends, I guess. If you believe in personal freedom, a public health crisis doesn’t come into it.

One of the only reasons I got two jabs was for the better of society, but that’s no one’s else responsibility.

Once pandemics end you’re left with less personal freedom and a slippery slope for the future. The mindset of rational people has understandably been scared into going against their morals and values.

So you're defending the right of anti vaxxers to spread disease?

We all have an individual responsibility to look after each other and in the current circumstances that means getting jabbed.

Whether we have lost more personal freedom because of the pandemic remains to be seen as most of the legislation constraining freedoms is temporary.

The far greater threat is from a proto fascist Tory government restricting voting and protest rights under cover of the pandemic not because of it.

I got jabbed because I wanted to go on holiday

No doubt, but then you're a complete jobby.

[BoniO]

Depends, I guess. If you believe in personal freedom, a public health crisis doesn’t come into it.

One of the only reasons I got two jabs was for the better of society, but that’s no one’s else responsibility.

Once pandemics end you’re left with less personal freedom and a slippery slope for the future. The mindset of rational people has understandably been scared into going against their morals and values.

And what about the personal freedom rights of those who are being prevented from getting hospital treatments for their own non Covid illnesses and diseases, held up by around the very high proportion of NHS ICU Covid patients who are not fully vaccinated against the Covid virus ? I wonder how many of these anti-vaxxers would refuse having the vaccine if they faced the prospect of non Covid treatment if they were proved to have refused the option of the vaccine ? Other countries are not such a ''Soft touch'' as the UK is. For just one instance, in Greece people over 60 years of age will soon have to start paying a 100 Euros a month fine if they have refused the vaccine, this is being enforced due to the large amount of un-vaccinated over 60s being admitted to hospital suffereing from Covid.

See below for just one example of this !

80% of patients admitted to Intensive Care Units in north east London in December not fully vaccinated'
https://northeastlondonccg.nhs.uk/news/ ... accinated/

Between 1 December and 31 December 2021, 124 patients with Covid-19 were admitted to intensive care units (ICU) across north east London (NEL). Of these, 80.6% (100) were not fully vaccinated (with 2 doses).

ICUs play an important role in hospitals, including looking after patients undergoing major surgery, for conditions such as cancer and heart disease.
Parjam Zolfaghari, a Consultant in Intensive Care Medicine and Anaesthesia at Barts Health NHS Trust said: “A considerable amount of resource is needed to treat patients in ICU, and those with Covid-19 are no exception. On average, a person with Covid-19 stays in an ICU bed for three times longer than ICU patients who are admitted with other conditions. The ongoing admission of patients with Covid-19 to critical care units is impacting on already stretched staff and, causing sustained pressure on services across north east London.”
He continues: “This clearly shows that getting two doses of a vaccine is the best way to reduce your chances of becoming seriously ill with Covid-19 and ending up in hospital. The individuals currently in our ICUs with Covid-19 are unlikely to have been admitted to intensive care if they had been fully vaccinated.”

You know there are 70000 nhs staff unvaccinated dont you Sid ?

Not doubting you Tuffers but that's crazy. I'd like to know the reasons why these NHS staff have chosen not to be vaccinated. Perhaps targeted education could then help to convince many to get the jab.

[Sid Bishop]

And what about the personal freedom rights of those who are being prevented from getting hospital treatments for their own non Covid illnesses and diseases, held up by around the very high proportion of NHS ICU Covid patients who are not fully vaccinated against the Covid virus ? I wonder how many of these anti-vaxxers would refuse having the vaccine if they faced the prospect of non Covid treatment if they were proved to have refused the option of the vaccine ? Other countries are not such a ''Soft touch'' as the UK is. For just one instance, in Greece people over 60 years of age will soon have to start paying a 100 Euros a month fine if they have refused the vaccine, this is being enforced due to the large amount of un-vaccinated over 60s being admitted to hospital suffereing from Covid.

See below for just one example of this !

80% of patients admitted to Intensive Care Units in north east London in December not fully vaccinated'
https://northeastlondonccg.nhs.uk/news/ ... accinated/

Between 1 December and 31 December 2021, 124 patients with Covid-19 were admitted to intensive care units (ICU) across north east London (NEL). Of these, 80.6% (100) were not fully vaccinated (with 2 doses).

ICUs play an important role in hospitals, including looking after patients undergoing major surgery, for conditions such as cancer and heart disease.
Parjam Zolfaghari, a Consultant in Intensive Care Medicine and Anaesthesia at Barts Health NHS Trust said: “A considerable amount of resource is needed to treat patients in ICU, and those with Covid-19 are no exception. On average, a person with Covid-19 stays in an ICU bed for three times longer than ICU patients who are admitted with other conditions. The ongoing admission of patients with Covid-19 to critical care units is impacting on already stretched staff and, causing sustained pressure on services across north east London.”
He continues: “This clearly shows that getting two doses of a vaccine is the best way to reduce your chances of becoming seriously ill with Covid-19 and ending up in hospital. The individuals currently in our ICUs with Covid-19 are unlikely to have been admitted to intensive care if they had been fully vaccinated.”

You know there are 70000 nhs staff unvaccinated dont you Sid ?

Not doubting you Tuffers but that's crazy. I'd like to know the reasons why these NHS staff have chosen not to be vaccinated. Perhaps targeted education could then help to convince many to get the jab.

Agree, working in a hospital with vulnerable patients yet refusing to be taking steps to protect yourself and the the ill patients you are helping to look after ?

[Max B Gold]

So you're defending the right of anti vaxxers to spread disease?

We all have an individual responsibility to look after each other and in the current circumstances that means getting jabbed.

Whether we have lost more personal freedom because of the pandemic remains to be seen as most of the legislation constraining freedoms is temporary.

The far greater threat is from a proto fascist Tory government restricting voting and protest rights under cover of the pandemic not because of it.

I got jabbed because I wanted to go on holiday

No doubt, but then you're a complete jobby.

I'm not sure because people like J K Rowling have made it all very complicated these days but I don't think you are allowed to call people jobby jabbers any more.

[faldO]

I'd like to know the reasons why these NHS staff have chosen not to be vaccinated. Perhaps targeted education could then help to convince many to get the jab.

From the occasional newspaper interview that you can find in Google it's the same range of reasons that the general population cite, some reasonable, some nonsense. Not sure what you could educate people with that they don't already know, perhaps when (or if) the reality of a P45 kicks in and key dates approach some will change their minds.

It goes from cleaners to surgeons to secretaries to nurses to porters and some would have portable skills and are probably not too concerned. Some will be easy to replace, others not.

The extent of staff losses in different areas also reflects vaccination take up rates generally around the country. For example, Barts Trust could lose up to 10% of staff, though strangely the director of people there seems more concerned with the impact on his inclusion agenda numbers than the effect on patients. Other trusts are less hard hit.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/thou ... 77736.html

[Chelmsford Swimmer]

The vaccine IS stopping people getting Covid, that's why there are more cases amongst the unvaccinated. Obviously it's not 100 percent effective, but that's no reason to belittle it as useless, when it obviously isn't. No one needs to lose their job and livelihood unless they choose to by not taking the vaccine for no good reason