Energy prices

[Currywurst and Chips]

Makes sense to me to have a blended approach like France where there's a state provider that's de facto run at arms length and a number of private suppliers as well.

Appreciate that's such a New Labour thing to say

[Max B Gold]

Yeah, I’d add to that. The UK also has a particular approach to free-market capitalism that can leave us vulnerable in ways other market economies are better insulated to. I can’t be bothered to explain, but I recently read a book which I thought explained it reasonably well (Two Hundred Years of Muddling Through by Duncan Weldon).

This problem is baked into the DNA of our institutions, so do not expect it to change any time soon. We’re witnessing it right now with our government’s inability to deal properly with the current building safety crisis. An instinctive aversion to state intervention, and for private enterprise to find the solutions almost all the time, means that we’re worse affected by this issue than other countries.

It's the triumph of an ideology which benefits the rich over what is pragmatic and benefits everyone.

The ideology is seen as the norm and is accepted as immutable and the only way to do things. It isn't.

[Max B Gold]

Makes sense to me to have a blended approach like France where there's a state provider that's de facto run at arms length and a number of private suppliers as well.

Appreciate that's such a New Labour thing to say

Why does a blended approach make sense. What are the advantages and disadvantages?

[Max B Gold]

60% of Tories agree so it's not controversial.

Dunnem has already admitted he approves - who else does, Dohnut or Thorge?

I don't know why, so call it a hunch, but I suspect they are in the 40% group.

[Currywurst and Chips]

Makes sense to me to have a blended approach like France where there's a state provider that's de facto run at arms length and a number of private suppliers as well.

Appreciate that's such a New Labour thing to say

Why does a blended approach make sense. What are the advantages and disadvantages?

Because monopolies generally aren't good for consumers

[Max B Gold]

Makes sense to me to have a blended approach like France where there's a state provider that's de facto run at arms length and a number of private suppliers as well.

Appreciate that's such a New Labour thing to say

Why does a blended approach make sense. What are the advantages and disadvantages?

Because monopolies generally aren't good for consumers

Even if its a natural monopoly which has been socialised and sits outside the free market?

It would if course still have to be regulated to ensure there were consumer protections and with greater worker participation a more "democratic" supplier would be less open to exploiting customers in the way that happens now.

[Currywurst and Chips]

Why does a blended approach make sense. What are the advantages and disadvantages?

Because monopolies generally aren't good for consumers

Even if its a natural monopoly which has been socialised and sits outside the free market?

It would if course still have to be regulated to ensure there were consumer protections and with greater worker participation a more "democratic" supplier would be less open to exploiting customers in the way that happens now.

Well yes, if you're the only show in town you can get away with charging what you like and can become lazy and lack innovation as we've seen in other failed UK state run industries.

What's the problem of having private suppliers as well if there's also a state run option (other than problems that arise purely out of ideology)?

[Dunners]

Obviously, we should carefully consider what impact nationalisation would have on our S&S ISAs and pension portfolios before doing anything too hasty.

[StillSpike]

The private "suppliers" aren't suppliers, though. They're just billing companies.

The "ideology" is in crow-barring an entirely fake "market" into the energy supply and distribution system

[Long slender neck]

Heat Pumps look like a pile of crap. Anyone got one?

[Max B Gold]

Because monopolies generally aren't good for consumers

Even if its a natural monopoly which has been socialised and sits outside the free market?

It would if course still have to be regulated to ensure there were consumer protections and with greater worker participation a more "democratic" supplier would be less open to exploiting customers in the way that happens now.

Well yes, if you're the only show in town you can get away with charging what you like and can become lazy and lack innovation as we've seen in other failed UK state run industries.

What's the problem of having private suppliers as well if there's also a state run option (other than problems that arise purely out of ideology)?

It's a natural monopoly. Having private suppliers takes us back down the fake market fiasco we have now and the duplication and additional red tape represents investment lost elsewhere in the economy.

Not all nationalised industries lacked "innovation" there have been some very successful ones in IT, weapons etc.

Don't forget the failed nationalisation you allude to failed because the capitalists couldn't run them properly and the state had to save them. Railways, shipbuilding etc

[Dunners]

Heat Pumps look like a pile of crap. Anyone got one?

They are pretty useless for most of the UK housing stock. But this is what happens when you just allow private enterprise to find solutions to issues of strategic importance. Companies always emerge with a 'solution' that people then just hang on to. It's happened previously with things like bio-mass boilers and the use of solar panels in regions that receive insufficient sunlight hours.

[Max B Gold]

Heat Pumps look like a pile of crap. Anyone got one?

My wife's cousin has a company which installs them all over the South East. He highly recommends them and refers to them as brilliant.

Should I get him to contact you?

[Long slender neck]

Heat Pumps look like a pile of crap. Anyone got one?

They are pretty useless for most of the UK housing stock. But this is what happens when you just allow private enterprise to find solutions to issues of strategic importance. Companies always emerge with a 'solution' that people then just hang on to. It's happened previously with things like bio-mass boilers and the use of solar panels in regions that receive insufficient sunlight hours.

I dont see why the govt thinks they're viable

expensive
difficult to install
req big space
req well insulated home
req big radiators, water tank
noisy
sounds like they dont make water particularly hot

They need to get on with clean hydrogen/gas and make it work with existing stuff

[Dunners]

The government doesn't know what to think. It simply identifies that there is a problem, and then creates an opportunity for private enterprise to put forward a solution. Whether that solution is a best fit for our long-term energy needs and security is just not factored in.

I've been involved in residential development long enough now to see this happen time and time again. And, for what it's worth, there's no silver bullet. All renewable energy options will work in some case, but not all. And there's no way I can see us not remaining reliant on oil/gas and nuclear for the foreseeable future.

As for heat pumps, if you live near a large field and are able to install one that uses a ground heat source, then it may be a solution. But it will never be a viable mass-market solution, which means those that do end up with them will have a diminished pool of suppliers for future maintenance and replacement (and therefore increased costs).

[Max B Gold]

The government doesn't know what to think. It simply identifies that there is a problem, and then creates an opportunity for private enterprise to put forward a solution. Whether that solution is a best fit for our long-term energy needs and security is just not factored in.

I've been involved in residential development long enough now to see this happen time and time again. And, for what it's worth, there's no silver bullet. All renewable energy options will work in some case, but not all. And there's no way I can see us not remaining reliant on oil/gas and nuclear for the foreseeable future.

As for heat pumps, if you live near a large field and are able to install one that uses a ground heat source, then it may be a solution. But it will never be a viable mass-market solution, which means those that do end up with them will have a diminished pool of suppliers for future maintenance and replacement (and therefore increased costs).

It's not so much seeking a solution because that doesn't matter but a faith that seeks to unleash the next gold rush by opening up money making schemes for entrepreneurs regardless of any benefit to humanity. It's how capitalism works.

[BoniO]

Heat Pumps look like a pile of crap. Anyone got one?

Not got one in the UK but have one fitted in my place in France to heat the pool. It's bloody brilliant tbh - at least in that role. It's an air sourced heat pump so just extracts heat from the air and uses that to heat water. Obviously they become more efficient with higher air temperatures - hence why they may not be the best suited to working efficiently in the depths of a UK Winter.

They will work of course, but need to be expensive high efficiency units (costly of course). They won't heat water to the same high temperatures as a gas boiler. Instead they use much larger hot water tanks (of lower temp water) for domestic supply (so you'd use less cold water in a bath/shower) and probably you'd need to replace all your rads for very high efficiency units that work better with cooler water.

Then you need a suitable outside location to site it, and they can be noisy. Think aircon units you've seen many time abroad.

In my opinion, they are only really viable for new builds where they can be planned properly into the build. I looked at the cost recently of using one to replace the gas boiler in my house but ended up staying with a new gas boiler. I'd have paid a bit more for a heat pump but it worked out at about 3 times as expensive, a shed load more disruption to the house, a noisy unit in the garden, and unknown if it would have provided enough hot water and heating. Government subsidies were also woeful when I looked at it last year. I believe these have just been improved but even so, I don't see it as viable for installation to an existing property.

[StillSpike]

Struggle to get my head around how these things work, to be honest.

If the air temperature is, say, 15deg C, how can that make anything warmer than 15dec C ?

[Long slender neck]

Heat Pumps look like a pile of crap. Anyone got one?

Not got one in the UK but have one fitted in my place in France to heat the pool. It's bloody brilliant tbh - at least in that role. It's an air sourced heat pump so just extracts heat from the air and uses that to heat water. Obviously they become more efficient with higher air temperatures - hence why they may not be the best suited to working efficiently in the depths of a UK Winter.

They will work of course, but need to be expensive high efficiency units (costly of course). They won't heat water to the same high temperatures as a gas boiler. Instead they use much larger hot water tanks (of lower temp water) for domestic supply (so you'd use less cold water in a bath/shower) and probably you'd need to replace all your rads for very high efficiency units that work better with cooler water.

Then you need a suitable outside location to site it, and they can be noisy. Think aircon units you've seen many time abroad.

In my opinion, they are only really viable for new builds where they can be planned properly into the build. I looked at the cost recently of using one to replace the gas boiler in my house but ended up staying with a new gas boiler. I'd have paid a bit more for a heat pump but it worked out at about 3 times as expensive, a shed load more disruption to the house, a noisy unit in the garden, and unknown if it would have provided enough hot water and heating. Government subsidies were also woeful when I looked at it last year. I believe these have just been improved but even so, I don't see it as viable for installation to an existing property.

Another lefty with a second home.

[BoniO]

Struggle to get my head around how these things work, to be honest.

If the air temperature is, say, 15deg C, how can that make anything warmer than 15dec C ?

Same technology as a fridge but in reverse. Heat pumps take heat out of the air - even if it's down at -20c - this heats up a refrigerant - this goes into a compressor which radically raises the temp and this heated refrigerant gas then heats the water. The selling point is that for every KW of electricity you use to run a pump you'll typically get back 4 times or more KW output in the shape of hot water. As mentioned before, the colder the air the less efficient they are and the returns are reduced.

[BoniO]

Heat Pumps look like a pile of crap. Anyone got one?

Not got one in the UK but have one fitted in my place in France to heat the pool. It's bloody brilliant tbh - at least in that role. It's an air sourced heat pump so just extracts heat from the air and uses that to heat water. Obviously they become more efficient with higher air temperatures - hence why they may not be the best suited to working efficiently in the depths of a UK Winter.

They will work of course, but need to be expensive high efficiency units (costly of course). They won't heat water to the same high temperatures as a gas boiler. Instead they use much larger hot water tanks (of lower temp water) for domestic supply (so you'd use less cold water in a bath/shower) and probably you'd need to replace all your rads for very high efficiency units that work better with cooler water.

Then you need a suitable outside location to site it, and they can be noisy. Think aircon units you've seen many time abroad.

In my opinion, they are only really viable for new builds where they can be planned properly into the build. I looked at the cost recently of using one to replace the gas boiler in my house but ended up staying with a new gas boiler. I'd have paid a bit more for a heat pump but it worked out at about 3 times as expensive, a shed load more disruption to the house, a noisy unit in the garden, and unknown if it would have provided enough hot water and heating. Government subsidies were also woeful when I looked at it last year. I believe these have just been improved but even so, I don't see it as viable for installation to an existing property.

Another lefty with a second home.

Shocking isn't it. I was thinking of getting another one as well.

[tuffers#1]

Not got one in the UK but have one fitted in my place in France to heat the pool. It's bloody brilliant tbh - at least in that role. It's an air sourced heat pump so just extracts heat from the air and uses that to heat water. Obviously they become more efficient with higher air temperatures - hence why they may not be the best suited to working efficiently in the depths of a UK Winter.

They will work of course, but need to be expensive high efficiency units (costly of course). They won't heat water to the same high temperatures as a gas boiler. Instead they use much larger hot water tanks (of lower temp water) for domestic supply (so you'd use less cold water in a bath/shower) and probably you'd need to replace all your rads for very high efficiency units that work better with cooler water.

Then you need a suitable outside location to site it, and they can be noisy. Think aircon units you've seen many time abroad.

In my opinion, they are only really viable for new builds where they can be planned properly into the build. I looked at the cost recently of using one to replace the gas boiler in my house but ended up staying with a new gas boiler. I'd have paid a bit more for a heat pump but it worked out at about 3 times as expensive, a shed load more disruption to the house, a noisy unit in the garden, and unknown if it would have provided enough hot water and heating. Government subsidies were also woeful when I looked at it last year. I believe these have just been improved but even so, I don't see it as viable for installation to an existing property.

Another lefty with a second home.

Shocking isn't it. I was thinking of getting another one as well.

Go on Comrade !

[Max B Gold]

Struggle to get my head around how these things work, to be honest.

If the air temperature is, say, 15deg C, how can that make anything warmer than 15dec C ?

You could just put on a nice thick woolly jumper to make up the difference.

[StillSpike]

Struggle to get my head around how these things work, to be honest.

If the air temperature is, say, 15deg C, how can that make anything warmer than 15dec C ?

You could just put on a nice thick woolly jumper to make up the difference.

I already have to do that in July around here.

[Clive Evans]

PW :- I suggest you read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_ ... ..Although it does sort of say Hydrogen is safe when used by NASA and the like and also in Hydrogen vehicles. In my encounters many, many years ago when I worked as a lab technician, I was put off by the stuff, which has some peculiar properties, due to the very small size of it's molecule. I remember when we switched from coal gas to North Sea Gas there were quite a few nasty incidents. All gases that burn, do so with different calorific values. At one time there was work with water gas. This caused some horrific accidents. I wouldn't trust the average British Gas bod to install anything Hydrogen in my house!