Migrants crossing the channel

[Long slender neck]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-58484976

What is the solution to this?

France etc dont want these people so arent going to try too hard to stop them and we cant very well stop them once they are in the middle of the sea.

Why cant these gangs be stopped?

[Currywurst and Chips]

[tuffers#1]

What a Racist photo

Comparing migrants in a boat to a packet of chocolate biscuits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Currywurst and Chips]

Officially the board's favourite biscuit no less (Penguin robbed imo)

You more of a popcorn guy when watching a MB squabble?

[Ornchurch]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-58484976

What is the solution to this?

France etc dont want these people so arent going to try too hard to stop them and we cant very well stop them once they are in the middle of the sea.

Why cant these gangs be stopped?

A row of mines strung across the Channel

[LittleMate]

Depends what you call a solution. If you want to stop it then its a zero tolerance approach that is required. Its all too easy to cross a borderless Europe and get to Calais. The locals there are fed up with it and France already take in plenty of migrants. We are fortunate that we have a strip of sea stopping easy migration for a large part of the year.

[Long slender neck]

Zero tolerance how?

[Kimpon]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-58484976

What is the solution to this?

France etc dont want these people so arent going to try too hard to stop them and we cant very well stop them once they are in the middle of the sea.

Why cant these gangs be stopped?

Whilst the ‘rewards’ in the UK are better than the EU they will continue.

[Dunners]

Zero tolerance how?

Zero tolerance means giving up the notion that there will ever be a compassionate way of dealing with this and leaving people to die in capsized boats. Yep, dwell on that for a moment.

[Long slender neck]

Loads would still make it, so i don't see how that would be zero tolerance.

[Dunners]

At present, the gangs can operate because they know that, once discovered, migrants in boats will be rescued. Sure, some do drown, but they can wave that off as being statistically unlikely when they advertise (and yes, they do advertise) their services to potential migrants.

The main migrant routes tend to funnel through Turkey. There you can see immigration services being advertised by organised crime groups in travel agent windows. They even have a menu of options at different price points, but boat crossing to the UK are one of the cheapest. (They will usually depict proper sea-worthy vessels, mind, not some inflatable dingy)

This is further enhanced by a tendency for those migrants who do get here to want to boast to their family and friends back home. A mixture of bravado and not wanting them to worry means that they will usually send back messages and photos that suggest that they’ve really landed on their feet. Migrants tend to do a lot of the trafficker’s marketing for them, even if they’re having a horrid time.

A zero-tolerance approach, in so far as one that results in increased deaths, would start to chip away at this. It would become increasingly more difficult to dismiss or ignore the fact that you have a good chance of dying should you attempt sea crossings into Europe or the UK.

But put yourself in the position of a ship's crew or coast guard. Would you be able to stand back and watch people drown?

[LittleMate]

Zero tolerance how?

I would suppose it would be a multi-faceted approach, the aim of which would be to dissuade migrants from making the crossing to begin with. There has been talk of it being made illegal to make such crossings, so that incarceration could take place. There's also been talk of "housing" them on ships at sea whilst the individuals claims for assylum takes place. The criteria for not shipping people back to their countries of origin could be lowered. Instead of funding France, we could fund Greece who are being far more pro-active in preventing migrants. They have recently built a 40km length of wall (that Donald Trump never really did) between themselves and Turkey. Its 20% of the border, aimed at keeping Afghans out. UK investment could strengthen Greece's security measures.

[RedDwarf 1881]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-58484976

What is the solution to this?

France etc dont want these people so arent going to try too hard to stop them and we cant very well stop them once they are in the middle of the sea.

Why cant these gangs be stopped?

A row of mines strung across the Channel

It would be interesting to see what happens if a Russian warship hits one .

[Admin]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-58484976

What is the solution to this?

France etc dont want these people so arent going to try too hard to stop them and we cant very well stop them once they are in the middle of the sea.

Why cant these gangs be stopped?

Whilst the ‘rewards’ in the UK are better than the EU they will continue.

Can you tell us what these rewards are?

[Long slender neck]

At present, the gangs can operate because they know that, once discovered, migrants in boats will be rescued. Sure, some do drown, but they can wave that off as being statistically unlikely when they advertise (and yes, they do advertise) their services to potential migrants.

The main migrant routes tend to funnel through Turkey. There you can see immigration services being advertised by organised crime groups in travel agent windows. They even have a menu of options at different price points, but boat crossing to the UK are one of the cheapest. (They will usually depict proper sea-worthy vessels, mind, not some inflatable dingy)

This is further enhanced by a tendency for those migrants who do get here to want to boast to their family and friends back home. A mixture of bravado and not wanting them to worry means that they will usually send back messages and photos that suggest that they’ve really landed on their feet. Migrants tend to do a lot of the trafficker’s marketing for them, even if they’re having a horrid time.

A zero-tolerance approach, in so far as one that results in increased deaths, would start to chip away at this. It would become increasingly more difficult to dismiss or ignore the fact that you have a good chance of dying should you attempt sea crossings into Europe or the UK.

But put yourself in the position of a ship's crew or coast guard. Would you be able to stand back and watch people drown?

Letting people drown on a large scale wont happen, so what other options are there?

'send em back' ?- to where and potentially costly/complicated.

refuse asylum? do not allow to legally settle? probably the sort of thing that takes ages and also costly/complicated

[Dunners]

At present, the gangs can operate because they know that, once discovered, migrants in boats will be rescued. Sure, some do drown, but they can wave that off as being statistically unlikely when they advertise (and yes, they do advertise) their services to potential migrants.

The main migrant routes tend to funnel through Turkey. There you can see immigration services being advertised by organised crime groups in travel agent windows. They even have a menu of options at different price points, but boat crossing to the UK are one of the cheapest. (They will usually depict proper sea-worthy vessels, mind, not some inflatable dingy)

This is further enhanced by a tendency for those migrants who do get here to want to boast to their family and friends back home. A mixture of bravado and not wanting them to worry means that they will usually send back messages and photos that suggest that they’ve really landed on their feet. Migrants tend to do a lot of the trafficker’s marketing for them, even if they’re having a horrid time.

A zero-tolerance approach, in so far as one that results in increased deaths, would start to chip away at this. It would become increasingly more difficult to dismiss or ignore the fact that you have a good chance of dying should you attempt sea crossings into Europe or the UK.

But put yourself in the position of a ship's crew or coast guard. Would you be able to stand back and watch people drown?

Letting people drown on a large scale wont happen, so what other options are there?

I’d like to think you’re right, but I wouldn't rule it out of hand. There’s been reports of Italian and Greek vessels ‘shoving’ migrant dinghies back in the direction of the shore they came from. This kind of action always has the potential to escalate, especially as it is normalised.

In addition to that, you have the Covid factor. Given the low vaccine rollout in many parts of the world, increased nationalist tendencies could facilitate an argument that illegal immigrants are now a direct health risk to the host country’s population.

'send em back' ?- to where and potentially costly/complicated.

refuse asylum? do not allow to legally settle? probably the sort of thing that takes ages and also costly/complicated

There are no easy or perfect solutions.

If the objective is simply to reduce the number of sea crossings, then we’ll need to implement a range of options. LittleMate has posted some ideas above. However, you’d also have to make opportunities for asylum claimants to present themselves on land-based locations for assessment much easier and more numerous so that you remove some of their motivation for making the crossings in the first place.

In a nutshell, we’d have to sweeten the carrot for following our ‘rules’ (whatever they are) but sharpen the stick for disobeying them. No10 have brought in Australian immigration/border force consultants and for a while now it has been clear that the UK is moving towards an Australian-style system. Check out how they have dealt with Torres Strait crossings. It was ruthless, but effective (so long as you're not one of the migrants, of course).

[Long slender neck]

How did the Aussies deal with it? I cant find it online.

[tuffers#1]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-58484976

What is the solution to this?

France etc dont want these people so arent going to try too hard to stop them and we cant very well stop them once they are in the middle of the sea.

Why cant these gangs be stopped?

Whilst the ‘rewards’ in the UK are better than the EU they will continue.

What rewards are better
Do tell ?

[Mistadobalina]

The restrictions on asylum seekers lives whilst they await a ruling on their case (this can take years) are already incredibly draconian.

We already chuck money at 3rd party countries in the name of encouraging 'legal' asylum applications, it looks like we'll escalate that further soon into full on Aussie style processing camps (you only need to do a bit of reading to understand how grim those places are, particularly when outsourced to perennial b*stard companies like serco). I don't know how much more punitive the UK state can get once those are introduced.

War, climate change and economic desperation are always going to be stronger pull factors that any punitive measures we can introduce to discourage people. The odd adjustment here and there will be made up many times over by the amount of displacement that is taking place globally right now. And it's worth bearing in mind that the overwhelming majority of refugees go to poorer countries less capable of receiving them. Colombia, Pakistan, turkey etc.

[Dunners]

How did the Aussies deal with it? I cant find it online.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Solution

and...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation ... gn_Borders

[Ronnie Hotdogs]

Maybe if things weren’t as sh*t in the countries they’re fleeing, they wouldn’t flee?

[Dunners]

The restrictions on asylum seekers lives whilst they await a ruling on their case (this can take years) are already incredibly draconian.

We already chuck money at 3rd party countries in the name of encouraging 'legal' asylum applications, it looks like we'll escalate that further soon into full on Aussie style processing camps (you only need to do a bit of reading to understand how grim those places are, particularly when outsourced to perennial b*stard companies like serco). I don't know how much more punitive the UK state can get once those are introduced.

War, climate change and economic desperation are always going to be stronger pull factors that any punitive measures we can introduce to discourage people. The odd adjustment here and there will be made up many times over by the amount of displacement that is taking place globally right now. And it's worth bearing in mind that the overwhelming majority of refugees go to poorer countries less capable of receiving them. Colombia, Pakistan, turkey etc.

Yep, all true.

Most governments are predicting that immigration is going to increase substantially. People are going to want to come here for a variety of reasons, such as increased regional instability post-world order and as the effects of climate change take hold.

This will worry governments across Europe, including our own, as we've seen the impact and uncertainty this can create for domestic politics (yes, this is a Brexit comment).

A further problem is that other countries, who have an interest in a weakened-West, see this as an opportunity to sh*t-stir. And they are more than prepared, and ruthless enough, to exploit the situations migrants find themselves in for their own ends.

We have the likes of Putin getting his mate Lukashenko to import busloads of Iraqis into Belarus, and then running them at the Latvian border. The Moroccan government is doing the same at the borders of Ceuta and Melilla. Greece is erecting a border wall between it and Turkey because it knows full well that the Turkish government will try to exploit the situation. There are already border walls within continental Europe and some countries have now suspended Schengen.

We should thank our lucky stars we were fortunate enough to be born here. The coming decades for many people across other parts of the world look really grim.

[Dunners]

Maybe if things weren’t as sh*t in the countries they’re fleeing, they wouldn’t flee?

Great point - if only someone had thought of that earlier!


But what can we realistically do about it? Endless migration is hardly going to stop the rot in those countries and the brain drain will make it next to impossible for them to develop their state institutions. Foreign aid has it's uses, and we should be doing more, but that often ends up in the pockets of despots and arseholes.

[Max B Gold]

No person is illegal. Bring em all in.

Sent from my watch tower on Girvan beach.

[Currywurst and Chips]

Play Momentum videos about the state of the UK on full blast in Calais and it might discourage some