Are Bolton going to go bust?

[slacker]

You have to love Accrington’s Andy Holt for putting his head above the parapet and sticking it again to the useless suits at the EFL, PL & FA.

[Thor]

He is absolutely right.

What's worse is the game is neglecting the grassroots as well that's a scandal not enough people are talking about, it's a national disgrace. The pro clubs have money, grassroots is all unpaid voluntarily people with little or no support from the local FA's and absolutely sweat FA from the FA.

[Proposition Joe]

Andy Holt is a national footballing treasure.

[Thor]

He is also someone to himself up as an example of how to run a football club correctly. Full credit to him and his team in doing it.

[Thor]

The community trust has set up a food bank for the club staff and hotel staff with donations coming in from local businesses and food vouchers donated by allegedly Wigan FC. Note the owner whose personal wealth will remain intact I’m sure was not one of those doing any donating. This is scandalous that it comes to this. Well done to the trust in helping those in need.

Where is the EFL or the FA for that matter? I’m not talking about food banks here I’m talking about a failure of a club for the 2nd time in what 5 years and they standby ideally whilst the club burns. Did they not learn anything after what happened to us among others?

[spen666]

The community trust has set up a food bank for the club staff and hotel staff with donations coming in from local businesses and food vouchers donated by allegedly Wigan FC. Note the owner whose personal wealth will remain intact I’m sure was not one of those doing any donating. This is scandalous that it comes to this. Well done to the trust in helping those in need.

Where is the EFL or the FA for that matter? I’m not talking about food banks here I’m talking about a failure of a club for the 2nd time in what 5 years and they standby ideally whilst the club burns. Did they not learn anything after what happened to us among others?

What do you want he Dr A or EFL to do that they legally can do?

[Esteban]

The community trust has set up a food bank for the club staff and hotel staff with donations coming in from local businesses and food vouchers donated by allegedly Wigan FC. Note the owner whose personal wealth will remain intact I’m sure was not one of those doing any donating. This is scandalous that it comes to this. Well done to the trust in helping those in need.

Where is the EFL or the FA for that matter? I’m not talking about food banks here I’m talking about a failure of a club for the 2nd time in what 5 years and they standby ideally whilst the club burns. Did they not learn anything after what happened to us among others?

What do you want he Dr A or EFL to do that they legally can do?

Sitting by and watching clubs getting destroyed is ok in your books is it, Mr Neutral?

Wonder if you would be so uncaring if it were your beloved Newcastle or Spennymore town going down the sh*tter?

It’s easy for you to not care when it is teams that you don’t actually support going down the pan (e.g. Orient a few years ago or Bolton today)

[Thor]

It’s fairly obvious that the Laws of the game need to be strengthened and tightened, the obvious one to start with is their fit and proper test which I understand LOFT is at the forefront of (well done so far) change in that respect. It however goes deeper than just that, doesn’t it? The whole structure of ownership needs to be looked at so the clubs which are assets of each community will be around in another x amount of years. That they are not used as a play thing until the owner gets bored. Better rules around deficits should be looked into, debt should be looked into and finally cash flow to sustain a club over a period of time, probably one year are reviewed and the owners held personally over.

Too many clubs have suffered mostly at the hands of bad owners, now is time for change for the better in my opinion.

[spen666]

The community trust has set up a food bank for the club staff and hotel staff with donations coming in from local businesses and food vouchers donated by allegedly Wigan FC. Note the owner whose personal wealth will remain intact I’m sure was not one of those doing any donating. This is scandalous that it comes to this. Well done to the trust in helping those in need.

Where is the EFL or the FA for that matter? I’m not talking about food banks here I’m talking about a failure of a club for the 2nd time in what 5 years and they standby ideally whilst the club burns. Did they not learn anything after what happened to us among others?

What do you want he Dr A or EFL to do that they legally can do?

Sitting by and watching clubs getting destroyed is ok in your books is it, Mr Neutral?

Wonder if you would be so uncaring if it were your beloved Newcastle or Spennymore town going down the sh*tter?

It’s easy for you to not care when it is teams that you don’t actually support going down the pan (e.g. Orient a few years ago or Bolton today)

I repeat the question

What do you want the FA or the EFL to do that they legally can?

I have not condemned or condoned the FA or the EFL because no one has actually been able to say what the FA or the EFL legally can do.



PS If you knew anything about football history, you would be aware that Spennymoor United went bankrupt in 1995 & it resulted in a series of court cases ( involving the leagues, the FA and affected clubs) which now govern what the leagues have to do when teams go bankrupt mid season, ie expunge records or award remaining games to opposition.



PPS

Who or what is a Spennymore?


PPPS If you knew anything about the subject you would know that Mike Ashley the owner of Newcastle United is hated by fans there who want him out. The difference is most Newcastle fans know the FA or EFL are powerless to change club ownership

[Thor]

So Spen, nothing to say about what I suggested?

Mike Ashley runs his club correctly from a financial perspective and I’d be happy with him as an owner. He may not splash the cash like City do, but his club is secure, profitable and mostly lives within its means. Not a bad owner I’d suggest.

[Esteban]

What do you want he Dr A or EFL to do that they legally can do?

Sitting by and watching clubs getting destroyed is ok in your books is it, Mr Neutral?

Wonder if you would be so uncaring if it were your beloved Newcastle or Spennymore town going down the sh*tter?

It’s easy for you to not care when it is teams that you don’t actually support going down the pan (e.g. Orient a few years ago or Bolton today)

I repeat the question

What do you want the FA or the EFL to do that they legally can?

I have not condemned or condoned the FA or the EFL because no one has actually been able to say what the FA or the EFL legally can do.



PS If you knew anything about football history, you would be aware that Spennymoor United went bankrupt in 1995 & it resulted in a series of court cases ( involving the leagues, the FA and affected clubs) which now govern what the leagues have to do when teams go bankrupt mid season, ie expunge records or award remaining games to opposition.



PPS

Who or what is a Spennymore?


PPPS If you knew anything about the subject you would know that Mike Ashley the owner of Newcastle United is hated by fans there who want him out. The difference is most Newcastle fans know the FA or EFL are powerless to change club ownership

Why would I know anything about an obscure non-league team from the north? The only reason you know is because you support them. And yet you throw a tantrum when I call you an Orient neutral, which you are, and describe yourself as on your own blog. A fact supported by the fact that you’ve never posted any positive about Orient, or O’s supporters and seem to use this forum exclusively to argue with real Orient fans.

[slacker]

You need to stop following Spenny around the threads and constantly digging him out, Esteb. So what if he carries a torch for other clubs as well as being an ST holder at Orient? He probably just likes football in general, and roots for teams where his roots were or where he’s formed an association. I’m pretty similar, tbh.

It’s good to have someone like Spenny around who makes us (including me) think a bit deeper about our opinions & ideas. Don’t try and chase him into the sea, please.

[Esteban]

You need to stop following Spenny around the threads and constantly digging him out, Esteb. So what if he carries a torch for other clubs as well as being an ST holder at Orient? He probably just likes football in general, and roots for teams where his roots were or where he’s formed an association. I’m pretty similar, tbh.

It’s good to have someone like Spenny around who makes us (including me) think a bit deeper about our opinions & ideas. Don’t try and chase him into the sea, please.

It’s not that he’s a neutral that I have a problem with. It’s that he’s a neutral who never says a positive thing about the club and is constantly trying to start arguments on this board for the sake of trying to be a contrarian.

And I don’t “follow him”. I follow a message board which he posts on. If he’s free to post his negative, argumentative rubbish on this board then I’m free to call him out. And will continue to do so.

[slacker]

What do you want the FA or the EFL to do that they legally can?

It’s a key question, and I’m not a lawyer or specialise in company or competition law so unsure what’s enforceable or beyond court challenge. But aren’t the EFL (and PL) members associations where the members can set the rules that all must abide by (or leave)? If that’s correct, it would be perfectly possible for them to put rules in place to stop member clubs financially doping as so many do.

Of course, the core problem is the EFL are cast adrift from the breakaway PL these days, where the profit (currently) is. The days of gate-sharing and spreading the tv income more equally amongst the 92 are long gone. And to get to the PL honeypot, most EFL clubs have to gamble & spend more than they make in operational income, which is why the aggregate losses in the FLC are so big and that also has a trickle down effect on the lower leagues. That’s the way it is nowadays, but it doesn’t have to be that way.

[spen666]

What do you want the FA or the EFL to do that they legally can?

It’s a key question, and I’m not a lawyer or specialise in company or competition law so unsure what’s enforceable or beyond court challenge. But aren’t the EFL (and PL) members associations where the members can set the rules that all must abide by (or leave)? If that’s correct, it would be perfectly possible for them to put rules in place to stop member clubs financially doping as so many do.

.....

This much is true, but the issue is what can FA/EFL etc do when a club owner ignores their ruling he is unsuitable as owner?

They cannot force a change in owner. That is a matter covered by The Companies Act .

The most the FA/EFL can do is expel a club from its competitions. If that happens, club unable to compete will go bankrupt, now there is no club left for fans. That must be a worse scenario for fans.

Would you want Orient where they are now, ie back in EFL or playing in Esse. Senior League against clubs who get circa 50 people there.


The FA/EFL have no real powers to deal with anyone who opposes them without effectively bankrupting the club involved.


You mention financial doping...the restrictions on this would be incredibly difficult to apply without being illegal as a restraint of trade.

Additionally, if say Kent Teague wanted to inject cash into club, he could just say it is sponsorship of for example a blade of grass for £5m a year. Be virtually impossible to stop this.

It would be far easier to restrict debt/ loan scenario

[Esteban]

What do you want the FA or the EFL to do that they legally can?

It’s a key question, and I’m not a lawyer or specialise in company or competition law so unsure what’s enforceable or beyond court challenge. But aren’t the EFL (and PL) members associations where the members can set the rules that all must abide by (or leave)? If that’s correct, it would be perfectly possible for them to put rules in place to stop member clubs financially doping as so many do.

.....

This much is true, but the issue is what can FA/EFL etc do when a club owner ignores their ruling he is unsuitable as owner?

They cannot force a change in owner. That is a matter covered by The Companies Act .

The most the FA/EFL can do is expel a club from its competitions. If that happens, club unable to compete will go bankrupt, now there is no club left for fans. That must be a worse scenario for fans.

Would you want Orient where they are now, ie back in EFL or playing in Esse. Senior League against clubs who get circa 50 people there.


The FA/EFL have no real powers to deal with anyone who opposes them without effectively bankrupting the club involved.


You mention financial doping...the restrictions on this would be incredibly difficult to apply without being illegal as a restraint of trade.

Additionally, if say Kent Teague wanted to inject cash into club, he could just say it is sponsorship of for example a blade of grass for £5m a year. Be virtually impossible to stop this.

It would be far easier to restrict debt/ loan scenario

Once the owner is in place, it's a pretty impossible situation.

There needs to be far stricter rules on who can own a club, to at least attempt to stop these people ever getting their hands on a club in the first place.

But then again... somebody could pass the test, however strict it is, and then act like a maniac 6 months in.

Maybe some sort of system whereby you must demonstrate previous club ownership at lower levels before being allowed to buy a league club. For example, you need to have X amount of years running a club at tier 5 or below before even being considered for league club ownership. This would also benefit the non-league as genuine owners would cut their teeth at the lower level.

Of course, you'll still get bandits, but a bandit ruining a tier 6 club is less damaging to a community than a bandit ruining a Championship club.

[spen666]

It’s a key question, and I’m not a lawyer or specialise in company or competition law so unsure what’s enforceable or beyond court challenge. But aren’t the EFL (and PL) members associations where the members can set the rules that all must abide by (or leave)? If that’s correct, it would be perfectly possible for them to put rules in place to stop member clubs financially doping as so many do.

.....

This much is true, but the issue is what can FA/EFL etc do when a club owner ignores their ruling he is unsuitable as owner?

They cannot force a change in owner. That is a matter covered by The Companies Act .

The most the FA/EFL can do is expel a club from its competitions. If that happens, club unable to compete will go bankrupt, now there is no club left for fans. That must be a worse scenario for fans.

Would you want Orient where they are now, ie back in EFL or playing in Esse. Senior League against clubs who get circa 50 people there.


The FA/EFL have no real powers to deal with anyone who opposes them without effectively bankrupting the club involved.


You mention financial doping...the restrictions on this would be incredibly difficult to apply without being illegal as a restraint of trade.

Additionally, if say Kent Teague wanted to inject cash into club, he could just say it is sponsorship of for example a blade of grass for £5m a year. Be virtually impossible to stop this.

It would be far easier to restrict debt/ loan scenario

Once the owner is in place, it's a pretty impossible situation.

There needs to be far stricter rules on who can own a club, to at least attempt to stop these people ever getting their hands on a club in the first place.

Ownership of a Company is a matter controlled via Parliamentary Legislation.
The FA/EFL can't stop someone e taking control.

This is the elephant in the room that football fans ignore

But then again... somebody could pass the test, however strict it is, and then act like a maniac 6 months in.

Maybe some sort of system whereby you must demonstrate previous club ownership at lower levels before being allowed to buy a league club. For example, you need to have X amount of years running a club at tier 5 or below before even being considered for league club ownership. This would also benefit the non-league as genuine owners would cut their teeth at the lower level.

Of course, you'll still get bandits, but a bandit ruining a tier 6 club is less damaging to a community than a bandit ruining a Championship club.

All of that is ultra views for the FA/EFL as the ownership of a club is a matter of Company Law.

No amount of rules by the FA can change company law. If I buy the shares in Manchester United and want to turn it into a shopping centre, there is nothing the FA/EFL can do to stop me. (Actually bad example as most Premiership clubs seem to be shopping venues)

I may fail their ODT, but I still own the club. The FA/EFL etc cannot affect the ownership of a club no matter how much they disapprove.

All they can do is expel club from its completions.
Would you rather Orient u set FB had been expelled and a new phoenix club were today in Essex Senior League or being where they are now in EFL & about to compete in final of the FA Trophy?

[Esteban]

This much is true, but the issue is what can FA/EFL etc do when a club owner ignores their ruling he is unsuitable as owner?

They cannot force a change in owner. That is a matter covered by The Companies Act .

The most the FA/EFL can do is expel a club from its competitions. If that happens, club unable to compete will go bankrupt, now there is no club left for fans. That must be a worse scenario for fans.

Would you want Orient where they are now, ie back in EFL or playing in Esse. Senior League against clubs who get circa 50 people there.


The FA/EFL have no real powers to deal with anyone who opposes them without effectively bankrupting the club involved.


You mention financial doping...the restrictions on this would be incredibly difficult to apply without being illegal as a restraint of trade.

Additionally, if say Kent Teague wanted to inject cash into club, he could just say it is sponsorship of for example a blade of grass for £5m a year. Be virtually impossible to stop this.

It would be far easier to restrict debt/ loan scenario

Once the owner is in place, it's a pretty impossible situation.

There needs to be far stricter rules on who can own a club, to at least attempt to stop these people ever getting their hands on a club in the first place.

Ownership of a Company is a matter controlled via Parliamentary Legislation.
The FA/EFL can't stop someone e taking control.

This is the elephant in the room that football fans ignore

But then again... somebody could pass the test, however strict it is, and then act like a maniac 6 months in.

Maybe some sort of system whereby you must demonstrate previous club ownership at lower levels before being allowed to buy a league club. For example, you need to have X amount of years running a club at tier 5 or below before even being considered for league club ownership. This would also benefit the non-league as genuine owners would cut their teeth at the lower level.

Of course, you'll still get bandits, but a bandit ruining a tier 6 club is less damaging to a community than a bandit ruining a Championship club.

All of that is ultra views for the FA/EFL as the ownership of a club is a matter of Company Law.

No amount of rules by the FA can change company law. If I buy the shares in Manchester United and want to turn it into a shopping centre, there is nothing the FA/EFL can do to stop me. (Actually bad example as most Premiership clubs seem to be shopping venues)

I may fail their ODT, but I still own the club. The FA/EFL etc cannot affect the ownership of a club no matter how much they disapprove.

All they can do is expel club from its completions.
Would you rather Orient u set FB had been expelled and a new phoenix club were today in Essex Senior League or being where they are now in EFL & about to compete in final of the FA Trophy?

I'd rather neither, If I'm perfectly honest.

The whole matter is a mess, and I think you're right in that there's not really much anybody can do about it.

I don't know enough about Company Law to comment any further with an sort of authority, so I'll take your word for it.

[spen666]

The matter is a mess. No one likes the situations that arise but it's wrong to blame the FA/EFL etc for something they have no control over.

You could equally blame the fans of a club for allowing say FB to buy the club instead of them buying the club.

It's all nonsense & all about money.

Football clubs despite our passion and mantras are just businesses these days. They clubs play up the idea of clubs belonging to fans to keep you from changing allegiances. In reality all you are to the club is a customer.

Some clubs work a lot harder to look after their customers than others. Compare say Orient & West Ham's treatment of its customers.

One relies on its product & fleeces it's customers

The other have a product (standard of football) that is a lower quality, but works hard to make its customers feel welcome & valued.

[Esteban]

The matter is a mess. No one likes the situations that arise but it's wrong to blame the FA/EFL etc for something they have no control over.

You could equally blame the fans of a club for allowing say FB to buy the club instead of them buying the club.

It's all nonsense & all about money.

Football clubs despite our passion and mantras are just businesses these days. They clubs play up the idea of clubs belonging to fans to keep you from changing allegiances. In reality all you are to the club is a customer.

Some clubs work a lot harder to look after their customers than others. Compare say Orient & West Ham's treatment of its customers.

One relies on its product & fleeces it's customers

The other have a product (standard of football) that is a lower quality, but works hard to make its customers feel welcome & valued.

Would you look at that....I'm in total agreement with you!

Great post.

[CreamofSumYungGai]

This much is true, but the issue is what can FA/EFL etc do when a club owner ignores their ruling he is unsuitable as owner?

They cannot force a change in owner. That is a matter covered by The Companies Act .

The most the FA/EFL can do is expel a club from its competitions. If that happens, club unable to compete will go bankrupt, now there is no club left for fans. That must be a worse scenario for fans.

Would you want Orient where they are now, ie back in EFL or playing in Esse. Senior League against clubs who get circa 50 people there.


The FA/EFL have no real powers to deal with anyone who opposes them without effectively bankrupting the club involved.


You mention financial doping...the restrictions on this would be incredibly difficult to apply without being illegal as a restraint of trade.

Additionally, if say Kent Teague wanted to inject cash into club, he could just say it is sponsorship of for example a blade of grass for £5m a year. Be virtually impossible to stop this.

It would be far easier to restrict debt/ loan scenario

Once the owner is in place, it's a pretty impossible situation.

There needs to be far stricter rules on who can own a club, to at least attempt to stop these people ever getting their hands on a club in the first place.

Ownership of a Company is a matter controlled via Parliamentary Legislation.
The FA/EFL can't stop someone e taking control.

This is the elephant in the room that football fans ignore

But then again... somebody could pass the test, however strict it is, and then act like a maniac 6 months in.

Maybe some sort of system whereby you must demonstrate previous club ownership at lower levels before being allowed to buy a league club. For example, you need to have X amount of years running a club at tier 5 or below before even being considered for league club ownership. This would also benefit the non-league as genuine owners would cut their teeth at the lower level.

Of course, you'll still get bandits, but a bandit ruining a tier 6 club is less damaging to a community than a bandit ruining a Championship club.

All of that is ultra views for the FA/EFL as the ownership of a club is a matter of Company Law.

No amount of rules by the FA can change company law. If I buy the shares in Manchester United and want to turn it into a shopping centre, there is nothing the FA/EFL can do to stop me. (Actually bad example as most Premiership clubs seem to be shopping venues)

I may fail their ODT, but I still own the club. The FA/EFL etc cannot affect the ownership of a club no matter how much they disapprove.

All they can do is expel club from its completions.
Would you rather Orient u set FB had been expelled and a new phoenix club were today in Essex Senior League or being where they are now in EFL & about to compete in final of the FA Trophy?

If a potential owner knew the club they were about to buy would be expelled from the competitions and therefore become worthless if they took over, they wouldn't buy the club in the first place.

Of course the authorities could do something about this. If they wanted to.

[Delamod]

It's worth a look at what UEFA are trying to do with Citeh.
The 'algebra of deterrence' is an interesting concept:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/bl ... rick-clubs

[Byways1]

You need to stop following Spenny around the threads and constantly digging him out, Esteb. So what if he carries a torch for other clubs as well as being an ST holder at Orient? He probably just likes football in general, and roots for teams where his roots were or where he’s formed an association. I’m pretty similar, tbh.

It’s good to have someone like Spenny around who makes us (including me) think a bit deeper about our opinions & ideas. Don’t try and chase him into the sea, please.

Closet West Ham Fan James?

[Adz]

All of that is ultra views for the FA/EFL as the ownership of a club is a matter of Company Law.

No amount of rules by the FA can change company law. If I buy the shares in Manchester United and want to turn it into a shopping centre, there is nothing the FA/EFL can do to stop me. (Actually bad example as most Premiership clubs seem to be shopping venues)

I may fail their ODT, but I still own the club. The FA/EFL etc cannot affect the ownership of a club no matter how much they disapprove.

All they can do is expel club from its completions.
Would you rather Orient u set FB had been expelled and a new phoenix club were today in Essex Senior League or being where they are now in EFL & about to compete in final of the FA Trophy?

Can you explain how the FA are able to enact the owners and directors test then if ownership of a football club is only dictated by company law? There are examples of people failing and being refused ownership/directorship, but by your statement the club could just ignore this and sell anyway?

https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/artic ... h-football

In particular there's nothing in company law to stop you owning more than one company but there is that limitation in owning a football club.

[spen666]

All of that is ultra views for the FA/EFL as the ownership of a club is a matter of Company Law.

No amount of rules by the FA can change company law. If I buy the shares in Manchester United and want to turn it into a shopping centre, there is nothing the FA/EFL can do to stop me. (Actually bad example as most Premiership clubs seem to be shopping venues)

I may fail their ODT, but I still own the club. The FA/EFL etc cannot affect the ownership of a club no matter how much they disapprove.

All they can do is expel club from its completions.
Would you rather Orient u set FB had been expelled and a new phoenix club were today in Essex Senior League or being where they are now in EFL & about to compete in final of the FA Trophy?

Can you explain how the FA are able to enact the owners and directors test then if ownership of a football club is only dictated by company law? There are examples of people failing and being refused ownership/directorship, but by your statement the club could just ignore this and sell anyway?

https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/artic ... h-football

In particular there's nothing in company law to stop you owning more than one company but there is that limitation in owning a football club.

The FA rules do not over ride the laws of the land. How could they? The FA cannot prevent anyone buying s club or indeed multiple clubs.

The FA rely on owners or prospective owners wanting their club to be able to compete in the FA run competitions.

The FA rules only apply in so far as entry to FA Competitions apply. If I bought a club & the FA didn't like me as owner, it doesn't stop me being the owner. It would stop my club competing in their competitions, but I would still own the club.