Unemployment

[Thor]

Is at a 45 year low and at 3.8% despite everything that's going on. Also more people than ever have a job.

Just think what the Tories could do if they could ever resolve Brexit and concentrate on our United Kingsom.

[Esteban]

Pretty sure employment stats include nonsense like 0 hours contracts and "self-employed" people who actually work for the likes of Uber & Deliveroo. Potentially unpaid internships included in that as well?

What I'm more interested in is how many people have stable, regular hours, regular income jobs with suitable employee protection and benefits.

I'd imagine that is at an all time low.

Usually stay away from the political threads on here (although I did have a little lapse on a Farage thread yesterday), but I declare a professional interest in this particular topic. I know all about lies, danmed lies and statistics.

[Mistadobalina]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... n-48229037

https://www.bigissue.com/latest/child-p ... h-in-2019/

The dignity of work argument only succeeds if work allows people to lead a dignified life.

[Red_Army]

Pretty sure employment stats include nonsense like 0 hours contracts and "self-employed" people who actually work for the likes of Uber & Deliveroo. Potentially unpaid internships included in that as well?

What I'm more interested in is how many people have stable, regular hours, regular income jobs with suitable employee protection and benefits.

I'd imagine that is at an all time low.

Usually stay away from the political threads on here (although I did have a little lapse on a Farage thread yesterday), but I declare a professional interest in this particular topic. I know all about lies, danmed lies and statistics.

Spot on.

Imagine what the Tories could do without Brexit? You don't need to- have a look at 2010-2015 (even restrained by the Lib Dems) and 1979-1997. There's what they do. Decimate industry and proper, stable employment and turn us into a country relying on services to provide the tax revenue to stop the country collapsing completely.

[greyhound]

figures are mostly bogus anyway.
years ago they used to count immigrants by the person.
now its per family to fool everyone into thinking immigration is going down.
governments only give out figures that make them look good regardless if they are true or not.

[Max B Gold]

Is at a 45 year low and at 3.8% despite everything that's going on. Also more people than ever have a job.

Just think what the Tories could do if they could ever resolve Brexit and concentrate on our United Kingsom.

I know people with three jobs because the miserable rates of pay and lack of hours compels them to work themselves to the bone to survive.

[F*ck The Poor & Fat]

Pretty sure employment stats include nonsense like 0 hours contracts and "self-employed" people who actually work for the likes of Uber & Deliveroo. Potentially unpaid internships included in that as well?

What I'm more interested in is how many people have stable, regular hours, regular income jobs with suitable employee protection and benefits.

I'd imagine that is at an all time low.

Usually stay away from the political threads on here (although I did have a little lapse on a Farage thread yesterday), but I declare a professional interest in this particular topic. I know all about lies, danmed lies and statistics.

Stats of course can be manipulated but providing they use the same basis for calculations then they are a fair reflection on the rate of change. For example if all the nonsense stuff like zero hour contracts have always been included then the low is a fair reflection of change. If however someone has decided to change the criteria then the figures become meaningless. I’m not aware of any criteria changes. More a case of the anti-Tory brigade trying to rubbish what are pretty impressive figures.

[Adz]

Stats of course can be manipulated but providing they use the same basis for calculations then they are a fair reflection on the rate of change. For example if all the nonsense stuff like zero hour contracts have always been included then the low is a fair reflection of change. If however someone has decided to change the criteria then the figures become meaningless. I’m not aware of any criteria changes. More a case of the anti-Tory brigade trying to rubbish what are pretty impressive figures.

That would be true if the gig economy and and zero hour contracts have existed throughout the dataset, which they haven't. If employment was really so low inflation would be much higher as would wage growth. Underemployment is now the only useful figure in working out what's really going on in the economy

[Red_Army]

Pretty sure employment stats include nonsense like 0 hours contracts and "self-employed" people who actually work for the likes of Uber & Deliveroo. Potentially unpaid internships included in that as well?

What I'm more interested in is how many people have stable, regular hours, regular income jobs with suitable employee protection and benefits.

I'd imagine that is at an all time low.

Usually stay away from the political threads on here (although I did have a little lapse on a Farage thread yesterday), but I declare a professional interest in this particular topic. I know all about lies, danmed lies and statistics.

Stats of course can be manipulated but providing they use the same basis for calculations then they are a fair reflection on the rate of change. For example if all the nonsense stuff like zero hour contracts have always been included then the low is a fair reflection of change. If however someone has decided to change the criteria then the figures become meaningless. I’m not aware of any criteria changes. More a case of the anti-Tory brigade trying to rubbish what are pretty impressive figures.

A predictable response. It depends what you are measuring. In terms of people in some form of employment the figures may signal an uptick. The problem is though, wages have stagnated as prices have increased for most people, so the same jobs now don't pay the same. A large number of these jobs are insecure, low-pay jobs with no real skills advantage attached.

The decline of industry in the county has meant that there is no longer decent work for working class people, particularly outside of London, who are non-academic. Instead of good, secure industrial jobs with the opportunity for development, these people are now performing low paid, low skill dead end jobs, usually working at the discretion of the employer.

I wouldn't call this progress or particularly impressive.

[Esteban]

Stats of course can be manipulated but providing they use the same basis for calculations then they are a fair reflection on the rate of change. For example if all the nonsense stuff like zero hour contracts have always been included then the low is a fair reflection of change. If however someone has decided to change the criteria then the figures become meaningless. I’m not aware of any criteria changes. More a case of the anti-Tory brigade trying to rubbish what are pretty impressive figures.

That would be true if the gig economy and and zero hour contracts have existed throughout the dataset, which they haven't. If employment was really so low inflation would be much higher as would wage growth. Underemployment is now the only useful figure in working out what's really going on in the economy

Thanks Adz, you answered this for me.

Just because the criteria doesn't change, it doesn't mean that the state of play is necessarily better, or worse.

The term "employed" does not mean the same thing as it did decades ago. This is because things like zero hour contracts and gig economy jobs, whereby you are technically "self-employed" so receive no employee benefits (including guaranteed hours), basically didn't exist (or were extremely rare) are far more common now. Hence my point about being far more interested in the rates of those with stable, guaranteed hour jobs with employee rights and benefits.

Let's take a crass example. Say we look at those in "full time education". Our definition will include anybody who is full-time at a school, college or university. Now say that all universities in the UK offered a free course in "Xbox studies" whereby all you do is play Xbox all day, take no exams and gain no knowledge whatsoever apart from how to get good at Fifa 19. Now the overall proportion of those in "full time education" will have increased. And the "criteria" technically hasn't changed. It was just the case that my free "Xbox studies" scheme didn't exist in previous years.

Now, most would argue that a rise in full time education is positive. But in this case its a false positive, because whilst the overall number has increased, many of those are doing my silly "xbox studies" course. What's worse, is that there will be a chunk of people who are doing the "Xbox studies" course who may well have done more useful, intellectually challenging courses.

So my government, which could claim record "full time education" rates, would technically be correct, but there's a strong argument that the overall state of play of education in my state has declined.

[Kent]

I work with longer term unemployed and can state that the government figures are not impressive at all and are hugely misleading!

Pretty sure employment stats include nonsense like 0 hours contracts and "self-employed" people who actually work for the likes of Uber & Deliveroo. Potentially unpaid internships included in that as well?

What I'm more interested in is how many people have stable, regular hours, regular income jobs with suitable employee protection and benefits.

I'd imagine that is at an all time low.

Usually stay away from the political threads on here (although I did have a little lapse on a Farage thread yesterday), but I declare a professional interest in this particular topic. I know all about lies, danmed lies and statistics.

Stats of course can be manipulated but providing they use the same basis for calculations then they are a fair reflection on the rate of change. For example if all the nonsense stuff like zero hour contracts have always been included then the low is a fair reflection of change. If however someone has decided to change the criteria then the figures become meaningless. I’m not aware of any criteria changes. More a case of the anti-Tory brigade trying to rubbish what are pretty impressive figures.

[Thor]

Is at a 45 year low and at 3.8% despite everything that's going on. Also more people than ever have a job.

Just think what the Tories could do if they could ever resolve Brexit and concentrate on our United Kingsom.

I know people with three jobs because the miserable rates of pay and lack of hours compels them to work themselves to the bone to survive.

It was no different under labour, please dont kid yourself.

[Thor]

Pretty sure employment stats include nonsense like 0 hours contracts and "self-employed" people who actually work for the likes of Uber & Deliveroo. Potentially unpaid internships included in that as well?

What I'm more interested in is how many people have stable, regular hours, regular income jobs with suitable employee protection and benefits.

I'd imagine that is at an all time low.

Usually stay away from the political threads on here (although I did have a little lapse on a Farage thread yesterday), but I declare a professional interest in this particular topic. I know all about lies, danmed lies and statistics.

Stats of course can be manipulated but providing they use the same basis for calculations then they are a fair reflection on the rate of change. For example if all the nonsense stuff like zero hour contracts have always been included then the low is a fair reflection of change. If however someone has decided to change the criteria then the figures become meaningless. I’m not aware of any criteria changes. More a case of the anti-Tory brigade trying to rubbish what are pretty impressive figures.

A predictable response. It depends what you are measuring. In terms of people in some form of employment the figures may signal an uptick. The problem is though, wages have stagnated as prices have increased for most people, so the same jobs now don't pay the same. A large number of these jobs are insecure, low-pay jobs with no real skills advantage attached.

The decline of industry in the county has meant that there is no longer decent work for working class people, particularly outside of London, who are non-academic. Instead of good, secure industrial jobs with the opportunity for development, these people are now performing low paid, low skill dead end jobs, usually working at the discretion of the employer.

I wouldn't call this progress or particularly impressive.

It could also be argued that business is squeezing the workforce, which they are and I've seen it first hand. For example telling the staff sorry no bonus etc this year as we had to write off a couple of hundred million, then they pay themselves bonuses of 869k each. It's called taking the piss. Agreeing to move someone from 19k to 24k and then when the pay award comes around, sorry nah can't do it now. Suffice to say I told them to stick their job. Bunch of wasters.

[Max B Gold]

Is at a 45 year low and at 3.8% despite everything that's going on. Also more people than ever have a job.

Just think what the Tories could do if they could ever resolve Brexit and concentrate on our United Kingsom.

I know people with three jobs because the miserable rates of pay and lack of hours compels them to work themselves to the bone to survive.

It was no different under labour, please dont kid yourself.

I didn't say it was Mr Alex Smart. However, Labour did introduce tax credits to allieviate poverty for the low paid but the Tories and Yella Tory Lib Dems have been eroding that humane measure for years now.

[Proposition Joe]

How did President Biz ('business? Completed it, mate') manage to get by while steadfastly refusing to subject raw stats to any kind of analysis?

"100% of the shipments arrived as scheduled? What a success!

50% of them perished en route and are unusable? Sounds to me like Mr Negative is trying to put a bad spin on some impressive figures for the company!"

[Thor]

But tax credits don't actually help do they? They encourage please to keep claiming them, they particularly encourage business to under pay people cos the state will pick up the rest. Surely what you need is a bit of regulation on pay or pressure to pay a proper living wage.

Let's not get on to the fact that labour withdrew the 10p starting rate of tax, which hardly helped the poor did it?

[Red_Army]

Labour introduced the national minimum wage, which at the time the Tories and business claimed would lead to less employment.

I noticed the same arguments being used by the same groups when Labour promised to extend the national living wage to under 24s this weekend. What a disgrace that this isn't already the case by the way.

[bobo66]

Statistics can be twisted to say what you want them to say. Always have been and probably always will be. I agree with the boarder above who quoted "lies, damned lies and statistics".

[CreamofSumYungGai]

Pretty sure employment stats include nonsense like 0 hours contracts and "self-employed" people who actually work for the likes of Uber & Deliveroo. Potentially unpaid internships included in that as well?

What I'm more interested in is how many people have stable, regular hours, regular income jobs with suitable employee protection and benefits.

I'd imagine that is at an all time low.

Usually stay away from the political threads on here (although I did have a little lapse on a Farage thread yesterday), but I declare a professional interest in this particular topic. I know all about lies, danmed lies and statistics.

Stats of course can be manipulated but providing they use the same basis for calculations then they are a fair reflection on the rate of change. For example if all the nonsense stuff like zero hour contracts have always been included then the low is a fair reflection of change. If however someone has decided to change the criteria then the figures become meaningless. I’m not aware of any criteria changes. More a case of the anti-Tory brigade trying to rubbish what are pretty impressive figures.

The criteria have changed significantly. Do some research.

These stats are complete codswallop, as anyone in touch with reality would know.

[F*ck The Poor & Fat]

Bottom line is that there have been a series of decent figures of late and whilst of course we understand the vagaries of such stats it’s what we have until someone can come up with a better system. So, accepting that the figures ain’t perfect and subject to all sorts attacks, they are in general positive.

I’m damn sure that if and when the figures show a downturn there will be plenty of people on here quoting them ad nauseam as evidence of the poor job the current lot are doing. It will happen, so we wait and see the hypocrites crawl out of the woodwork. The figures are good “crap data”. The figures are bad “crap Government”. How it works.

[CreamofSumYungGai]

Whilst I admire you trying to defend these incompetent arseholes, even hardened tories like yourself have to agree this government is crap and doing a bad job.

[Esteban]

Bottom line is that there have been a series of decent figures of late and whilst of course we understand the vagaries of such stats it’s what we have until someone can come up with a better system. So, accepting that the figures ain’t perfect and subject to all sorts attacks, they are in general positive.

I’m damn sure that if and when the figures show a downturn there will be plenty of people on here quoting them ad nauseam as evidence of the poor job the current lot are doing. It will happen, so we wait and see the hypocrites crawl out of the woodwork. The figures are good “crap data”. The figures are bad “crap Government”. How it works.

What makes them "positive"? Simply because the number has increased?

That's an absurd suggestion.

[LittleMate]

I know people with three jobs because the miserable rates of pay and lack of hours compels them to work themselves to the bone to survive.

It was no different under labour, please dont kid yourself.

I didn't say it was Mr Alex Smart. However, Labour did introduce tax credits to allieviate poverty for the low paid but the Tories and Yella Tory Lib Dems have been eroding that humane measure for years now.

Tax credits or increasing the national minimum wage: Is there much difference.

The real problem is that you can't please all of the people all of the time - and almost all of the people trying to do it are motivated by political motives as opposed to the well being of those they are supposed to serve.

[F*ck The Poor & Fat]

Bottom line is that there have been a series of decent figures of late and whilst of course we understand the vagaries of such stats it’s what we have until someone can come up with a better system. So, accepting that the figures ain’t perfect and subject to all sorts attacks, they are in general positive.

I’m damn sure that if and when the figures show a downturn there will be plenty of people on here quoting them ad nauseam as evidence of the poor job the current lot are doing. It will happen, so we wait and see the hypocrites crawl out of the woodwork. The figures are good “crap data”. The figures are bad “crap Government”. How it works.

What makes them "positive"? Simply because the number has increased?

That's an absurd suggestion.

.?

[Sid Bishop]

What I think is ridiculous is that some people I know restrict the hours they work to avoid losing housing benefits etc and thus be worse of by working. Surely there should be some sort of a more sensible flexible structure to be put into place in order to make people far better off when working, rather than having to restrict how many hours they work a week in order not to lose out on benefits.